[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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03-01-2014, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 05:22 PM by anonymous66.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
Interesting how Simon Southerton was excommunicated from the LDS church over the DNA issue.

Quote:Simon Southerton
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Simon Southerton is an Australian plant geneticist.[1] Southerton published the book Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church.[2] The book uses genetic evidence to examine the historical accuracy of The Book of Mormon. Southerton was a member of the LDS Church, but after the book was published, the church charged him with inappropriate sexual relations with a woman other than his wife; in an email sent to the Associated Press he stated he was excommunicated for being too vocal regarding the results of the Genomics Project DNA.[3] However, Members of the church disciplinary council contended that the excommunication had nothing to do with the book.[4]

]Here is Simon's take on the matter.
Quote:Simon Southerton -My Court Of Love
Monday, Jul 18, 2005, at 07:17 AM
Original Author(s): Simon Southerton
Topic: SIMON SOUTHERTON -Guid- ↑
Hi Folks,

Some of you may hear reports about my upcoming disciplinary council.I just thought I would clarify a few things that were a little incorrect in the story I saw.

My wife and I left the church 7 years ago in 1998. We separated in 2003 for a period of almost 2 years. Several months after we separated I met a woman and we were close friends for about a year. She was in the process of leaving the church, lives interstate, and was separated from her husband (now divorced). The relationship ended and about 6 months later my wife and I got back together. We have been together for about 9 months and things are going well.

I am proud to be an apostate and deliberately never requested that my name be removed from the records. There are only two ways that my name can be removed. I could request it myself or they must hold a church court. They can't take my name off the records without my knowledge. I wrote Losing a Lost Tribe because I want to pressure the church to change its teachings and doctrines that are racist and wrong. Native Americans and Polynesians are not descended from Israelites and they are not the descendants of the imaginary cursed Lamanite race. I was looking forward to a court because it would give me an opportunity to admit to the charge of apostasy and defend my integrity.

Like many church leaders in Australia, my Stake President is aware that I have publicly challenged the teachings of the church for several years. Rather than hold a court on the charge of apostasy, he chose to take the sleazy route. He arranged for church leaders in another state to meet with my friend and to get a signed confession that she had had a relationship with me. She admitted she had before she knew what they were up to, and then refused to sign anything. Several weeks ago the Stake President and bishop met with me and my wife. I wasn't interested in talking about the adultery charge and we spent most of the time discussing my difficulties with the Book of Mormon. It was a very pleasant discussion and both seemed very sincere. Two weeks later I received a letter from the Stake President inviting me to a disciplinary council to answer adultery charges. He made no mention of my apostasy in the letter.

I deserve to be excommunicated. I fully expect to be excommunicated. But I am disappointed that the Stake President has engaged in official backbiting and snooping in order to avoid discussion of the more difficult issues related to Polynesian and Native American ancestry. I suspect he would probably prefer his high council didn't hear about this.

As a bishop I never snooped into the lives of inactive members to look for opportunities to discipline and the bishops I have known didn't do this either. If they did they would be holding courts all the time. We have not attended church in 7 years and have not had a single home teaching visit during that time. Now I am back with my wife they choose to haul me into a church court to punish me for alleged sexual sins. My wife is looking forward to attending the court and letting them know how she feels about the course of action they have taken. Should be interesting!

Regards
Simon
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03-01-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 05:12 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I think this is were the primary point of disagreement between you and the other users in this thread (myself included) lies.

I consider "interpreting [a text] within the boundaries of an agreed-upon semantic system" to be equivalent with "taking [a text] at face value".

Fair enough, but face value can still be quite subjective.

(03-01-2014 05:12 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I believe that Timber1025 was alluding to a post you made earlier in this thread in which you argued that certain falsehoods in The Book of Mormon do not trouble you because your interpretation is different from ours.

Off the top of my head, I don't remember exactly what I said and what the context was, but I generally don't fret that stuff because I'm not committed to a literalist reading.

(03-01-2014 05:12 PM)Vosur Wrote:  One cannot help but wonder whether you interpret TBoM this way because of them or in spite of them. Consider

I came to the LDS Church as an adult, after developing my literary framework quite a bit. It's obviously evolved over the years, but I don't think I've ever changed the way I've read the text in order to hide from problems with the text. I've always been one to highlight issues like that and open them up to see what they reveal.

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03-01-2014, 05:24 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 05:28 PM by anonymous66.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
It looks like the church also had issues with anthropologist Thomas W. Murphy.

Quote:Thomas W. Murphy (born circa 1967) is a Latter Day Saint anthropologist and writer.

Contents

1 Biography
1.1 Controversial essay
1.2 Subsequent action
2 Works
3 See also
4 References
5 Further reading
6 External links

Biography

Murphy earned his Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Washington in 2003. As of 2013, he teaches in the Department of Anthropology at Edmonds Community College in Washington state. He founded the Learn and Serve Environmental Anthropology Field (LEAF) School in 2006. The LEAF School offers field-based service-learning courses in human ecology and archaeology and specializes in the application of traditional ecological knowledge to sustainability projects. The Washington Association of Conservation Districts selected Murphy as its Conservation Educator of the Year in 2011.[1] The Puget Sound Regional Council selected the Japanese Gulch Fish Passage Project in 2012 for a Vision 2040 Award, highlighting the anthropology and archaeology field training led by Murphy.[2]

His academic publications focus on wildlife corridors,[3] social marketing,[4] environmental education,[5] and Mormon representations of Native Americans and have been published in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion; Ethnohistory; the Journal of Mormon History; the Review of Religious Research; Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought; Sunstone; Social Science Research Network,[6] the 2002 book American Apocrypha: More Essays on the Book of Mormon, edited by Brent Lee Metcalfe and Dan Vogel.
Controversial essay

Murphy drew attention in the media and from the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after the publication of his essay, "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics."[where?][when?]This essay discusses the genetic evidence for the geographic origin and lineage of Native American groups. It relies on evidence regarding mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited directly from the mother; the Y chromosome, inherited from the father; and nuclear DNA.[7]

Murphy posited that DNA evidence suggests that Native Americans are descendents of individuals from northeastern Siberia—corroborating conclusions that anthropologists have long held on the basis of linguistic, physiological, and other anthropological evidence. He notes the 99.6% absence of genetic heritage outside of known indigenous Native American haplogroups. (The remaining 0.4% is near universally agreed among anthropologists and biologists studying the issue to represent genetic markers that were introduced after the year 1492.)[citation needed]

In his essay, Murphy writes:

From a scientific perspective, the BoMor's origin is best situated in early 19th century America, not ancient America. There were no Lamanites prior to c. 1828 and dark skin is not a physical trait of God's malediction. Native Americans do not need to accept Christianity or the BoMor to know their own history. The BoMor emerged from Joseph Smith's own struggles with his God. Mormons need to look inward for spiritual validation and cease efforts to remake Native Americans in their own image.[7]

Murphy concluded that "DNA research lends no support to traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans" and he has likened the Book of Mormon to inspirational fiction. Murphy has reaffirmed this point several times since the initial publication of his essay in interviews and in videos produced by Living Hope Ministries,[citation needed] a Utah-based evangelical Christian ministry that produces literature and films that question and criticize Mormonism.

In a review in 2006, the FARMS Institute responded to Murphy's claims.[8]
Subsequent action

Murphy's review of genetic research was expanded upon by molecular biologist Simon Southerton, a former Mormon Bishop, with his study Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans DNA, and the Mormon Church, Signature Books, 2004, which gives a more complete accounting of the current status of Polynesians and Native Americans in context with national studies, Mormon scholars and concessions by geneticists from BYU. Other researchers such as Scott Woodward are critical of Southerton's work.

In response to the publication of "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics", Murphy's LDS stake president, Matthew Latimer, asked him to either recant his position regarding DNA evidence and the Book of Mormon or resign his membership in the LDS Church. Murphy declined both suggestions, so Latimer scheduled a disciplinary council for December 8, 2002.[9] Such a council might have resulted in Murphy's disfellowshipment or excommunication from the church.[10]

His situation received widespread media attention and generated protest actions from some Mormon intellectual groups. Less than 24 hours before the scheduled meeting time, Latimer indefinitely postponed Murphy's disciplinary council on December 7, 2002.[10] Finally, on February 23, 2003, Latimer informed Murphy that all disciplinary action was placed on permanent hold.[11] In a note Murphy sent to several supporters for wide public distribution, Murphy expressed hope that other scholars in similar positions might benefit from Latimer's decision:

We hope that other stake presidents will follow this most recent example of President Latimer and likewise refrain from using the threat of excommunication as tool for disciplining scholars.
—-- Thomas Murphy, open letter dated 23 February 2003[12]
[not in citation given]
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03-01-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 05:12 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I think this is were the primary point of disagreement between you and the other

*where

Finally! Banana_zorro

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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03-01-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 05:28 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 05:12 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I think this is were the primary point of disagreement between you and the other

*where

Finally! Banana_zorro
Noooooooooooo! Weeping

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03-01-2014, 05:32 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 04:34 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 04:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  Are you saying something as trivial as the marks on the paper have no intrinsic meaning?

Fine, they don't. The text is not the ink on the paper.

If the text is not the ink on the paper or the pixels on the screen, what is it? If it's an abstraction, a perception, or a conceptualization, then it exists nowhere except in the mind of the reader. It simply does not exist until a reader conjures it up.

You make a trivial point. The text exists, that is an objective fact.

I don't create the text or its meaning, I perceive it and its meaning. My perception of the meaning will be imperfect to some degree.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2014, 10:11 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 05:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 05:28 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  *where

Finally! Banana_zorro
Noooooooooooo! Weeping

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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03-01-2014, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 10:21 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 02:17 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  You catz can step off his dick anytime now. Angel

/whiteknight

I can understand Mac's bias after having studied the Gwynnies for thirteen years, mofo can forgive me for being Gwynnite, knowwhatimsayin?

But if you mofos chase off an interesting theist, Gwynnies may need a human sacrifice. Evil_monster

But since when is a flaming liquid stream of equivocal bullshit interesting?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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04-01-2014, 12:01 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 04:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 09:35 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I appreciate the sentiment, Bucky (although it's Dan, not David. Dave's my brother).


Oops. I was supposed to be at an early meeting, and I was late. Oh well. Sorry Blush
The enemy is not "religion". The enemy is Fundamentalism, and ignorance, as I see it. I was sitting in the San Diego Cathedral this Christmas, having been asked to fill in for an ill baritone soloist, and I was thinking "Hmm, these people are reasonable, and all they want is to raise all these kids the best they can". If Francis can say 'Who am I to judge ?', maybe I should tone it down a notch. I do get that many people here have horrible experiences stemming from their exposure to religion. I don't happen to be in that number. My family is ULTRA liberal Catholic and Episcopalian. (Like "nuns-on the bus" type people). I just don't have the chip on my shoulder many here do. I do get where it comes from though.

Just book-marking this.

"Bucky's epiphany"

Carry on.

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04-01-2014, 12:35 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 01:35 AM by DLJ.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(03-01-2014 04:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  ...
Yeah, but data and information are meaning, not texts. It's tautologous to say that meaning can have meaning.
...

Hmmm, 'data' and 'information' are categories but categories are tricky 'cause really it's a continuum. But neither are meaning in and of themselves ... not without context.

(03-01-2014 04:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  ...
Also, if you're going to copy and paste from a book, at least have the decency to identify the book.
...

I am the only person qualified to read that material. It would be irresponsible of me to provide links and references. It is dangerous and potentially life threatening for the untrained to read such things.

(03-01-2014 04:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  ...
You might also try explaining how this business model for enterprise IT management is at all relevant to linguistics.

I thought the thread topic was evidence? COBIT is the definitive text for Information Assurance.

Given that we are all essentially information, what better than the new bible for the information age to help us reveal truth?

Big Grin

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