[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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06-01-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 07:49 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 07:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  I wouldn't know since you haven't defined it. You seemingly intended it as an insult.

I've defined it above. I can see how it can come across as an insult, but I think it's much more fair than "amateur." I also don't think it's insulting to acknowledge a difference between my preparation in the study of religion and constituent and tangential fields, and that of the majority of the people here. I'm a hobbyist when it comes to things like physics and math, and I'm happy to be called such, but the story is different with things like linguistics, history, and the sociology, psychology, and history of religion.

What is surprising to me is that those studies don't lead you to atheism.

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(06-01-2014 07:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I require evidence when someone is attempting to convince me to believe something.

And when the only thing of which they could be construed as trying to convince you is that they believe something for a reason that seems legitimate to them?

You can probably guess that my epistemological position is that their reason is not legitimate, that they hold a belief without evidence.

Quote:
(06-01-2014 07:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  As I said above, you are welcome to believe anything you want, but without evidence beliefs are not facts.

And as I said, I am not trying to assert any of my beliefs as fact.

(06-01-2014 07:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I never said such a thing.

So what would you say to all the people here repeatedly challenging someone who is just happy to keep going on believing privately?

Not my problem, but I do wonder why someone who wants to keep his religious beliefs private would be complaining about it on an atheist forum.

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06-01-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 07:56 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 07:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  [Image: 829405d1378322797-29er-cf-hts-part-1-dis...eaf8_z.jpg]

It's also my experience, man. Having a fat ol' IQ I've been accused of intellectual arrogance and all I can do is try to keep a lid on it. Big Grin

Yabut, some are better at it than others. Tongue

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06-01-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  And I find the characterization of organized religion as dangerous and harmful to be ridiculous. That's not to say it never is such, just as you can hardly deny that there are not any atheists here who base their claims on rather uninformed, fallacious, and amateurish principles.

This is where you fall flat on your face. Do we really need to list off all the problems with justifying Bigotry and Hatred that religion gives? Your own group had very racist tendencies up until 1968 and even after that still considers black people to be "inferior". 9/11, bride burning, female circumcision, bombing of abortion clinics all given justification by religion. Just because you have an academic view on it does not mean that all the negatives of a system that is inherently designed to control people can be waved away. Religion does real harm in the real world and the closer you follow the rules in God's big book of bad ideas the worse of a person you are. It promotes clannish behavior and persecution of anyone not in your "in-group" it is also vague enough to be used to provide a "divine" mandate to any idiot action from rape to murder to genocide. Liberal believers that claim that religion is a force for good ignore all evidence to the contrary, and there is tons of it, so they can have their happy little sing-alongs every sunday and ignore the cancer that they help to spread.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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06-01-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  What is surprising to me is that those studies don't lead you to atheism.

What can I say? I'm a surprising person.

(06-01-2014 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  You can probably guess that my epistemological position is that their reason is not legitimate, that they hold a belief without evidence.

Everyone holds to beliefs of some kind or another without evidence.

(06-01-2014 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not my problem, but I do wonder why someone who wants to keep his religious beliefs private would be complaining about it on an atheist forum.

I'm not complaining about my religious beliefs, I'm complaining about the misrepresentation and mischaracterization of religion and its study. Am I in a justifiable position to do that, in your opinion?

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06-01-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:41 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I'm not complaining about my religious beliefs, I'm complaining about the misrepresentation and mischaracterization of religion and its study. Am I in a justifiable position to do that, in your opinion?

Because you see religion as changed, improved, relied upon?

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-01-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 08:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  And I find the characterization of organized religion as dangerous and harmful to be ridiculous. That's not to say it never is such, just as you can hardly deny that there are not any atheists here who base their claims on rather uninformed, fallacious, and amateurish principles.

This is where you fall flat on your face. Do we really need to list off all the problems with justifying Bigotry and Hatred that religion gives? Your own group had very racist tendencies up until 1968 and even after that still considers black people to be "inferior". 9/11, bride burning, female circumcision, bombing of abortion clinics all given justification by religion. Just because you have an academic view on it does not mean that all the negatives of a system that is inherently designed to control people can be waved away. Religion does real harm in the real world and the closer you follow the rules in God's big book of bad ideas the worse of a person you are. It promotes clannish behavior and persecution of anyone not in your "in-group" it is also vague enough to be used to provide a "divine" mandate to any idiot action from rape to murder to genocide. Liberal believers that claim that religion is a force for good ignore all evidence to the contrary, and there is tons of it, so they can have their happy little sing-alongs every sunday and ignore the cancer that they help to spread.

Wow. You get wound up. That's not a strawman, that's a whole straw village. Big Grin

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06-01-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is where you fall flat on your face. Do we really need to list off all the problems with justifying Bigotry and Hatred that religion gives?

I can also list off ways atheism has justified bigotry and hatred.

(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Your own group had very racist tendencies up until 1968

I think you're referring to 1978.

(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  and even after that still considers black people to be "inferior". 9/11, bride burning, female circumcision, bombing of abortion clinics all given justification by religion.

Actually nationalism played more of a role in 9/11 than religion, but the other three certainly have religion at their foundation. Tell me, do you know what causes 6.6 times more global deaths every year than all the world's current wars and national conflicts? I'll give you a hint: certain religions are responsible for attempts to prohibit it, while atheism broadly justifies it.

(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Just because you have an academic view on it does not mean that all the negatives of a system that is inherently designed to control people can be waved away.

It is no more "inherently designed to control people" than is secular government.

(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Religion does real harm in the real world and the closer you follow the rules in God's big book of bad ideas the worse of a person you are.

That's not true at all. You're making reference to traditional interpretations of the implications of specific historical narratives, not to actual rules the book identifies as such. You're pawning off a fundamentalist hermeneutic as your own, and you're evidently not even aware of it.

(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It promotes clannish behavior and persecution of anyone not in your "in-group" it is also vague enough to be used to provide a "divine" mandate to any idiot action from rape to murder to genocide.

Yeah, lots of things are pointed to as catalysts for those things, including atheism.

(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Liberal believers that claim that religion is a force for good ignore all evidence to the contrary, and there is tons of it, so they can have their happy little sing-alongs every sunday and ignore the cancer that they help to spread.

That's a marvelously bigoted and hateful mischaracterization of the majority of the world's inhabitants. I wonder on what grounds you justify it.

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06-01-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:41 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  What is surprising to me is that those studies don't lead you to atheism.

What can I say? I'm a surprising person.

(06-01-2014 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  You can probably guess that my epistemological position is that their reason is not legitimate, that they hold a belief without evidence.

Everyone holds to beliefs of some kind or another without evidence.

(06-01-2014 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not my problem, but I do wonder why someone who wants to keep his religious beliefs private would be complaining about it on an atheist forum.

I'm not complaining about my religious beliefs, I'm complaining about the misrepresentation and mischaracterization of religion and its study. Am I in a justifiable position to do that, in your opinion?

You did, in fact, complain when people commented on your religious beliefs.

Your scholarly contribution is appreciated, but it won't go unquestioned.

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06-01-2014, 08:52 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:44 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Because you see religion as changed, improved, relied upon?

No, because I see religion and its study misrepresented and mischaracterized here. I thought I made that pretty clear. I'm defending the objective and informed study of religion for its own sake. Please don't try to attribute to me other motivations that you've conjured up in your own head.

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06-01-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 08:46 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is where you fall flat on your face. Do we really need to list off all the problems with justifying Bigotry and Hatred that religion gives? Your own group had very racist tendencies up until 1968 and even after that still considers black people to be "inferior". 9/11, bride burning, female circumcision, bombing of abortion clinics all given justification by religion. Just because you have an academic view on it does not mean that all the negatives of a system that is inherently designed to control people can be waved away. Religion does real harm in the real world and the closer you follow the rules in God's big book of bad ideas the worse of a person you are. It promotes clannish behavior and persecution of anyone not in your "in-group" it is also vague enough to be used to provide a "divine" mandate to any idiot action from rape to murder to genocide. Liberal believers that claim that religion is a force for good ignore all evidence to the contrary, and there is tons of it, so they can have their happy little sing-alongs every sunday and ignore the cancer that they help to spread.

Wow. You get wound up. That's not a strawman, that's a whole straw village. Big Grin

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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