[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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06-01-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 09:27 AM)maklelan Wrote:  All very nice examples of evils committed in the name of religion. I hope it's self evidence enough that horrific atrocities have been committed the world over without appeals to religion, or with appeals to atheism or secularism, that I don't have to waste time going and finding YouTube links.

No, it's not "self evidence" [sic] enough. You are demanding that we assume your conclusion as a premise.

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(06-01-2014 09:05 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Also I am assuming you are referring to Abortion with that one snide comment.

No, I'm not. Try again. This, by the way, is a perfect illustration of how much your cultural conditioning has blinded you to how many real issues exist outside of your distrust of religion.


What this is, is a perfect example of you trying to play a shell game.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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06-01-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 01:15 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  According to the CDC, an average of 3,880 people drown every year in the US.

I say we ban immersion baptisms immediately!

Or it proves that you should not go swimming when you're pissed*.



* Englished pished, not US PissAngryd

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06-01-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
The God delusion... I read it. Well, up to chapter 5. TBH Dawkins is a bit too dry for me. The stuff in there is good though. There's quite a bit of baiting in there which I think makes it hard for religious people to read, but the actual content of the arguments is pretty strong, well as strong as these wishy-washy things ever get.

The primary argument made there is that the major Gods of the major religions *are* in fact testable hypotheses, if the claims made by their followers bear any relation to what is normally called reality.

With depressing regularity the primary test is as follows:
Null hypothesis: Humans are both error prone and easily susceptible to a con.
Alternative hypothesis: The known laws of the universe were violated in a non-verifiable fashion by an undetectable sentient being for it's own reasons.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-01-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 09:30 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 09:09 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  How would you like an Atheist Forum to Represent YOUR religion??

Objectively, the way scholarship does,

We do that.

Quote:with the lens of the "sympathetic outsider."


Rolleyes


Quote:If one refuses to even attempt to acknowledge the humanity and dignity of members of my faith, at the very least they can be accurate.

Pot. Kettle.

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06-01-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 09:35 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 09:30 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  As I was not the only person to misunderstand what you so vaguely referred to

It was a quiz. It's supposed to be vague. And I'm actually surprised nobody got it. I would have figured you'd have dealt with this plenty.

(06-01-2014 09:30 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  perhaps you could enlighten us all.

Alcohol. It is directly responsible for around 2.5 million deaths a year worldwide, and that's with only around 50% of males and 40% if females consuming it. The vast majority of those who do not consume alcohol do so for religious reasons (primarily Muslims), and I've yet to see any atheist advocate for any kind of abolition or even regulation of alcohol that even marginally approximates the claims they make about the need for, and utopia of, a world without religion. Alcohol does far more damage to human life than religion ever could.

Atheism, the non-belief in superstitious fairy tales, is not required to hold a position on alcohol use. You are strawmanning atheism again.

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06-01-2014, 02:19 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 01:15 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  According to the CDC, an average of 3,880 people drown every year in the US.

I say we ban immersion baptisms immediately!

One of the silliest attempts at a rhetorical jab I've seen in a while.

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06-01-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 12:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I would never presume to speak so unilaterally about a broad ideological population.
In that case, I can't help but wonder why you mentioned it in the first place.

(06-01-2014 12:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Alcohol is not a hallucinogen.
My apologies, you're right, of course. The term I meant to use was "psychoactive drugs".

(06-01-2014 12:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  See the WHO PDF to which I linked above for the documentation.
I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Can you post it again?

(06-01-2014 12:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I already answered that question.
And I explained to you why it was not an answer to my question. I asked you why atheism justifies the use of alcohol, not why atheists do so.

You too would (and in fact have already) object if I were to assert that Mormonism justifies delusional thinking on the basis that some Mormons attribute magical powers to their underwear.

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06-01-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  I say don't drink and drive, that can be legislated for.

Now you've reduced the number of alcohol-related deaths by about a third. That's still around four times as many deaths a year as all the wars and national conflicts.

(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  Fair enough, but it did appear to be aimed at me.

You took up an argument against mine, and I assumed it was in defense of the position I directly challenged. My bad for assuming.

(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  You don't know me.

Nothing in your comments indicates to me that you have some special cognizance of all arguments, but the way you're responding to me does indicate that, at the very least, you've not dealt directly with my specific argument before. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but simply telling me that you know all arguments isn't really doing that.


(06-01-2014 12:47 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Alcohol is not going to go away, the same as religion.

You don't share the same goals as many people here.

(06-01-2014 12:47 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Well I said "I know you're gonna say "well good for you, but...." obviously meaning that you was going to come up with a counter argument that I'd heard before. Then you said "No, you don't know anything about me." Then went on to give a counter argument that I'd heard before.

Well, next time you run across an argument you've seen before, show me you can deal with it and then maybe I'll believe you. "Yeah, heard that before" doesn't really blow my hair back.

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06-01-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
But I HAVE dealt with your argument, how's your hair blowing?
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06-01-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  In that case, I can't help but wonder why you mentioned it in the first place.

Then maybe you need to pay better attention.

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  My apologies, you're right, of course. The term I meant to use was "psychoactive drugs".

So what are you doing to campaign against the dangers of alcohol besides just not using it?

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Can you post it again?

Of course.

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  And I explained to you why that was not an answer to my question. I asked you why atheism justifies the use of alcohol, not why atheists do so.

"Atheism" is used metonymically for "atheists." Certainly you're aware of such usage.

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You too would (and in fact have already) make an objection if I were to assert that Mormonism justifies delusional thinking on the basis that some Mormons attribute magical powers to their underwear.

Well, I'd first correct your misunderstanding of clinical delusion, and then I'd point out that I made clear I was speaking in generalities, and have yet to be shown incorrect. At most, a couple atheists have insisted they don't drink and discourage it when they're asked about it, which really doesn't undermine at all my point that the level of commitment given to railing against religion for its ostensible dangers ought to be at the very least matched, if not exceeded, by the commitment to railing against the many times more dangerous scourge of alcohol. Given that the actual level of commitment appears to limp along just above zero, the notion that the zeal shown here is a result of religion's dangers is a ridiculous pretext and nothing more.

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