[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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06-01-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)joben1 Wrote:  But I HAVE dealt with your argument, how's your hair blowing?

No, you've just responded to them. Then I've responded myself and pointed out the shortcomings of your claims and characterizations. All along the way you also claimed to know me and to know all arguments. You're acting like this is high school.

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06-01-2014, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 02:47 PM by joben1.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
All you have said is that alcohol causes great harm and I agree. As far as I can see, that's all you've said on the matter.

You APPEAR to think that alcohol should be banned, and that is what I have dealt with. Alcohol is going nowhere, just like religion.
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06-01-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  I say don't drink and drive, that can be legislated for.

(06-01-2014 02:28 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Now you've reduced the number of alcohol-related deaths by about a third. That's still around four times as many deaths a year as all the wars and national conflicts.

That was a direct response to your point regarding drinking and driving. In no way did I suggest that's ALL we can do.
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06-01-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:43 PM)joben1 Wrote:  All you have said is that alcohol causes great harm and I agree. As far as I can see, that's all you've said on the matter.

No, what I've said is that alcohol causes far more deaths than religion ever could, and that it's disingenuous for atheists to claim to work so hard against a phenomenon on the grounds that it's putatively dangerous while at the same time taking a favorable or occasionally passively negative stance against a far, far more dangerous phenomenon. If you think I'm wrong, you let me know, but I would conclude that far, far, far more atheists think regulation of alcohol is either fine, or even too restrictive, than believe it needs to be further regulated. On the other hand, many, many atheists either advocate for more restriction of the exercise of religion or talk longingly about the days when we can do away with it entirely. I find that egregiously hypocritical.

(06-01-2014 02:43 PM)joben1 Wrote:  You APPEAR to think that alcohol should be banned, and that is what I have dealt with. Alcohol is going nowhere, just like religion.

I don't think it should be banned, I just think it should be far more regulated. I also think people should think twice before belittling what they claim to be a dangerous phenomenon while blithely supporting one that is demonstrably many times more dangerous. Like I said, my whole case has been aimed at a particular attitude. If your attitude is different, then I have no beef with you.

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06-01-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 12:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 12:42 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Someone tell me again why we're not allowed to point out the absurdity of the history of religion and how that does not apply to Mak here? And explain to me why Mak gets to cherry pick that OUT of his association with religion and run his agenda against Atheism were alcohol is concerned?? Because we Finally DID get down to his agenda here but not before we all had to tip-toe around his sensitivity of persecution where he feels we misrepresent religion as a whole.......

so....... someone catch me up. Mak refuses to answer such questions.

Typical theist stance "I am not deluded about anything it's you lot that's deluded" and now we have one hell of a red herring.

Thanks Rev lol

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06-01-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:51 PM)joben1 Wrote:  That was a direct response to your point regarding drinking and driving. In no way did I suggest that's ALL we can do.

Fair enough.

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06-01-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:58 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 02:43 PM)joben1 Wrote:  All you have said is that alcohol causes great harm and I agree. As far as I can see, that's all you've said on the matter.

No, what I've said is that alcohol causes far more deaths than religion ever could, and that it's disingenuous for atheists to claim to work so hard against a phenomenon on the grounds that it's putatively dangerous while at the same time taking a favorable or occasionally passively negative stance against a far, far more dangerous phenomenon. If you think I'm wrong, you let me know, but I would conclude that far, far, far more atheists think regulation of alcohol is either fine, or even too restrictive, than believe it needs to be further regulated. On the other hand, many, many atheists either advocate for more restriction of the exercise of religion or talk longingly about the days when we can do away with it entirely. I find that egregiously hypocritical.

(06-01-2014 02:43 PM)joben1 Wrote:  You APPEAR to think that alcohol should be banned, and that is what I have dealt with. Alcohol is going nowhere, just like religion.

I don't think it should be banned, I just think it should be far more regulated. I also think people should think twice before belittling what they claim to be a dangerous phenomenon while blithely supporting one that is demonstrably many times more dangerous. Like I said, my whole case has been aimed at a particular attitude. If your attitude is different, then I have no beef with you.

But I don't see atheists claiming to work so hard against religion. All I see is atheists asking for evidence of a claim made by theists.
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06-01-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
Can't belive I will bite on the religion/alcohol beef, but...

I would like to see the numbers showing how the consumption alcohol has been the cause for more deaths than all of the national wars and confilcts instigated by religious based spats? Go back 100, 1000, 3000 years as I am genuinely curious if it really could be the case.

Also, drinking alcohol (among other potentially dangerous behaviors) is not taught to children as psychological blackmale to be taken as truth in order to ignore proven understanding of this world and universe it resides in.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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06-01-2014, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 03:48 PM by Vosur.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Then maybe you need to pay better attention.
I would prefer an explanation over a condescending remark.

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  So what are you doing to campaign against the dangers of alcohol besides just not using it?
Outside of my circle of friends and family, nothing in particular. I should probably point out that I show the same level of commitment when it comes to combating the dangers of religion.

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Of course.
Is there something I'm missing here? As far as I can tell, this report does little to substantiate your statements because it makes no mention of religion.

I would appreciate it if you could present me with specific citations in support of the claim that a majority of the world's population opposes the use of alcohol on religious grounds.

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  "Atheism" is used metonymically for "atheists." Certainly you're aware of such usage.
I don't see how that is relevant to the issue I have raised.

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Well, I'd first correct your misunderstanding of clinical delusion [...]
You would be correcting an imaginary misunderstanding because I have never talked about clinical delusion.

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  [...] and then I'd point out that I made clear I was speaking in generalities [...]
Well, you evidently didn't make it clear enough. Tongue

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  [...] and have yet to be shown incorrect.
It is not for us to show that you are incorrect until you have met your burden of proof. Apart from your personal experience, you have yet to offer any evidence in support of your generalizations.

(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  At most, a couple atheists have insisted they don't drink and discourage it when they're asked about it, which really doesn't undermine at all my point that the level of commitment given to railing against religion for its ostensible dangers ought to be at the very least matched, if not exceeded, by the commitment to railing against the many times more dangerous scourge of alcohol. Given that the actual level of commitment appears to limp along just above zero, the notion that the zeal shown here is a result of religion's dangers is a ridiculous pretext and nothing more.
Do you think that the views and actions of a handful of people on an Internet forum are representative of the atheistic population as a whole?

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06-01-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 09:40 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 09:37 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  We tried that once it was an unmitigated disaster

People have tried to get rid of religion before, too, and it was an even more deadly unmitigated disaster. And yet you continue to pursue that goal.

We don't have to get rid of religion. People are dumping it in droves, all we have to do is enjoy the world's awakening from the dark ages.


Quote: It's remarkable what you're not willing to give up on and what you're willing to just let continue killing millions of people a year because trying to stop it didn't work once.

Strawman much?





(06-01-2014 09:48 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 09:46 AM)Vosur Wrote:  How, exactly, does atheism "broadly justify" the consume of alcohol? Blink

Atheists vehemently defend it, largely because the only real opponents to it are religious.

Citation needed for this strawman.

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