[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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06-01-2014, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 04:11 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 09:56 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 09:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  Gross and inaccurate generalization. On every level.

Are you saying you agree that alcohol is more of a danger to humanity than is religion, and that in a perfect world we would be rid of it? Or are you just saying that it's not a function of an atheistic worldview so much as a function of cultural and ideological dynamics at play between atheism and religion?

Oh, look -- a loaded question just brimming with straw men. Did they teach you that in apologetics class?






(06-01-2014 10:16 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 10:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  "Atheists vehemently defend it..." Really? Atheists come in all stripes; I suspect you may mean 'humanists' who believe in individual freedom.

No, I mean atheists. I'm as aware of the pluriformity of atheism as I am of that of religion, but I have never come across an atheist opponent of alcohol. I have come across numerous, numerous ardent defenders of it who deride religion for its opposition to it. On the other hand, there are billions of religious opponents of alcohol.


Fallacy: Appeal to Personal Incredulity.


Quote:
(06-01-2014 10:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  "...the only real opponents to it are religious." Some religions espouse opposition to it, and many non-religious but health conscious oppose it.

The number is around 4 billion theists who oppose it for religious reasons, and how many self-identifying atheists?


Red Herring. Your assertion is completely non sequitur.

I have never seen anyone self-identified as not collecting stamps who oppose alcohol, either. You are wallowing in fallacious bear-baiting.



Quote:
(06-01-2014 10:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  The majority of religions do not oppose the use of alcohol.

True, but the majority of all humans on the planet, as a direct result of religion, do. There exists opposition to alcohol on purely religious grounds, and I have personally witnessed support of alcohol on atheistic grounds. You've never seen that?

Citation for your bald assertions needed.

(06-01-2014 10:05 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 09:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  This might help:
[Image: iib_death_wellcome_collection_fullsize.png]

Not really helpful, as alcohol is primarily, if not solely, responsible for many of the deaths represented in the chart by other causes, like cirrhosis of the liver, road traffic, suicide, homicide, etc, etc., etc. For my source for the 2.5 million deaths a year caused by alcohol, see this 2011 World Health Organization report.

[Image: redherring.gif]

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06-01-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
What proof is there to support that moving away from religion "was an even more deadly unmitigated disaster"? I mean it has only been shown a bazillion times in these forums how more secular nations most often have "healthier" societies. Wouldn't go as far to imply causation in these correlations, but the data cannot be ignored.

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06-01-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 10:19 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 10:10 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And that renders your quest to correct the misunderstandings and misrepresentations of religion useless because our personal experiences with religion will always trump anything you have to offer in terms of knowledge in order to correct those misunderstandings and misrepresentations.

I have a hard time believing you're really being serious with this silly little attempt at a rhetorical gotcha. As long as your misunderstandings and misrepresentations are used as anything other than personal witnesses to yourself of your worldview, then we're talking about an entirely different phenomenon. I don't care who wants to believe what about religion, provided they don't presume to come online and insist it has any bearing on anything beyond outside of their conscience. When people bark about the evils of religion online, and insult and mock millions of decent and honest people in the process, they're demonstrably not keeping it to themselves.

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(06-01-2014 10:25 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 10:12 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I nearly said the same but that would have led to the obvious comment that there is shitload on there that has "god is on my side" as an indirect (but necessary) factor.

Yes, there are far too many tragedies committed every year in the name of religion, and that's a big problem that I am constantly fighting against.

And precisely how are you going to stop this? Rolleyes

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06-01-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 04:12 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  What proof is there to support that moving away from religion "was an even more deadly unmitigated disaster"? I mean it has only been shown a bazillion times in these forums how more secular nations most often have "healthier" societies. Wouldn't go as far to imply causation in these correlations, but the data cannot be ignored.

He's making that up. It's what pathological liars do.

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06-01-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 10:26 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 10:19 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  If religions are so opposed to use of alcohol , priests shouldn't be making it, right?

Did I identify that particular religion as one that opposes alcohol? I would like a serious answer to my question, by the way. A simple yes or no will do.

No, you are being deliberately vague, evasive, and disingenuous.

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06-01-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
Does anybody else feel like this whole thing got spread SO thin and stretched ALL OVER the place that it just doesn't really make any sense any more? Where's the next tangent or lane change?

I *was* talking (pages back) to Mak regarding his persecution here (this forum) - asked some straight forward questions (which were disallowed) okie dokie - whatever.
Then there was a severe lane change - that it wasn't Mak's persecution (and our misrepresentation of religion in general) discussed any more - we NOW took a left field turn into the perils of alcohol......... whereby Atheists contribute to alcoholism (or abuse or lack of stopping alcoholism - the verbiage is magical) .Blink
Now we've circled back to atheism contributing to alcoholism far outweighs ANY crime committed by religions - past or present. The very crime of religions (past or present) that we cannot tackle because Mak feels persecuted when that topic arises.
And that topic arose in response to his condemnation of atheism.............BlinkBlink

(looks down to see if one foot nailed to the floor)


Abandon thread.
Good luck to those of you who can withstand this sort of circular thinking.

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06-01-2014, 04:29 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 05:09 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 11:40 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 10:33 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Well you did say " primarily Muslims" but that hardly counts as identifying a particular one.

Yes, the largest portion of the world's population that does not consume alcohol is Muslim.


Yes, and they bring so much benefit to the world in so many other areas as well:

[Image: article-1319804-0B955F01000005DC-985_634x757.jpg]

Quote:
(06-01-2014 10:33 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  So my answer would be :No

Thanks.

(06-01-2014 10:33 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  But seriously, blaming atheism for alcoholism is just ridiculous.

I'm not blaming atheism for alcoholism, I'm concerned that priorities are misplaced and people aren't being entirely honest when they express deep moral concern and outrage for the putative dangers of religion and then no concern at all for a demonstrably more dangerous phenomenon, or even defend the value and necessity of that phenomenon.

Yes you are blaming us, and you are also throwing out a huge stinking non-sequitur red herring with this whole alcohol nonsense.

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06-01-2014, 04:32 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 11:43 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 11:38 AM)joben1 Wrote:  Mak, who the hell do you think you are to tell me I can't drink alcohol? I drink in moderation, and my drinking does me nor anyone else any harm.

Plenty of people who drink in moderation have still unintentionally caused death and suffering. On the other hand, who the hell are you to tell me that my practice of my religion is bad when it neither does me nor anyone else any harm?

It does a hell of a lot of harm when you idiots go out proselytizing your delusional bullshit at vulnerable and ignorant people who buy your snake oil and get sucked into your collective delusions.

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06-01-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 12:23 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I already answered that question.

No, you have not. All you did was fallaciously continue your assertion ad nauseum. Of course that is in keeping with your "I don't need no steenkeeng evidence" epistemology, but be aware that we are under no obligation to take you or your claims seriously without that evidence.

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(06-01-2014 12:41 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 11:51 AM)morondog Wrote:  Who says we're not worried about alcohol ? We don't have idiots saying 'you *must* drink', 'you are evil if you don't drink' running around. We don't have ancient books written by twits with frothing-at-the-mouth condemnations of people who don't drink contained therein, which are read and believed by a large majority of the population. We don't have powerful lobbies of people trying to spread misinformation about alcohol, or at least not on the scale of for example, the Creationist movement. Therefore we don't feel the same need to address the arguments of the alcohol pushers.

You'll just let 2.5 million people continue to die every year (in addition to the many millions more hospitalized, abused, and otherwise suffering as a direct result) because at least they're not being dicks about pushing it? Seriously? That's your argument?



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06-01-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 03:07 PM)joben1 Wrote:  But I don't see atheists claiming to work so hard against religion. All I see is atheists asking for evidence of a claim made by theists.

If you don't commonly see atheists online and in the media advocating for or dreaming about a religion-less society then you're not really paying that much attention.

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