[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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06-01-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 10:16 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 10:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  "Atheists vehemently defend it..." Really? Atheists come in all stripes; I suspect you may mean 'humanists' who believe in individual freedom.

No, I mean atheists. I'm as aware of the pluriformity of atheism as I am of that of religion, but I have never come across an atheist opponent of alcohol. I have come across numerous, numerous ardent defenders of it who deride religion for its opposition to it. On the other hand, there are billions of religious opponents of alcohol.

Well, I have come across atheists who are against alcohol, so there's that.

Quote:
(06-01-2014 10:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  "...the only real opponents to it are religious." Some religions espouse opposition to it, and many non-religious but health conscious oppose it.

The number is around 4 billion theists who oppose it for religious reasons, and how many self-identifying atheists?

I dispute your number. See below.

Quote:
(06-01-2014 10:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  The majority of religions do not oppose the use of alcohol.

True, but the majority of all humans on the planet, as a direct result of religion, do. There exists opposition to alcohol on purely religious grounds, and I have personally witnessed support of alcohol on atheistic grounds. You've never seen that?

No, it is not true that the majority of human beings on earth oppose the use of alcohol. Add up the number of Muslims, Sikhs, Mormons, and Baptists, you don't get a majority of people on earth. Hindus and Buddhists don't forbid it.

As a believer in personal freedom and choice, I do not oppose the use of alcohol or other drugs, howeverI don't drink or do recreational drugs.
One of the things I dislike about religions is their desire/need to control other people's behavior.

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06-01-2014, 04:47 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 12:47 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 12:03 PM)joben1 Wrote:  Name one.

Had I the inclination, I could pull up thousands of records of vehicular homicide resulting from people driving just over the legal limit, which can be as little as one drink if your weight, sex, and tolerance is right. Tell me, at what specific BAC does one move from drinking "in moderation" to "excessively"?

(06-01-2014 12:03 PM)joben1 Wrote:  And when did I tell you that?

It's the specific attitude against which I'm leveling the alcohol example. If that's not your position, then my argument is not with you.

(06-01-2014 12:03 PM)joben1 Wrote:  But I know all the arguments.

No, you don't.

(06-01-2014 12:03 PM)joben1 Wrote:  I'm well aware of this and do take steps to prevent it when I see it, do you?

Absolutely, but rather than just be reactive about one of the biggest and most direct threats to human health and safety, I make a point of trying to be proactive about making the world a better place. As long as someone here is bitching about how religion needs to go away because it's dangerous, they need to bitch even more about alcohol or admit that they're being disingenuous.

(06-01-2014 12:03 PM)joben1 Wrote:  And that's one of them by the way. It seems I DO know you.

That's one of what? And no, you don't know me at all, irrespective of what you may think you know about how these arguments go.

(06-01-2014 12:03 PM)joben1 Wrote:  Yes it is thanks.

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Yes, just WHAT have all you atheist bastards done to stop CAT JUGGLING?????


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Quote:Absolutely, but rather than just be reactive about one of the biggest and most direct threats to human health and safety, I make a point of trying to be proactive about making the world a better place. As long as someone here is bitching about how religion needs to go away because it's dangerous, they need to bitch even more about alcohol or admit that they're being disingenuous.


BULLSHIT. Your claim here is non sequitur and itself disingenuous as fuck.

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06-01-2014, 04:49 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 04:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  As a believer in personal freedom and choice, I do not oppose the use of alcohol or other drugs, howeverI don't drink or do recreational drugs.
One of the things I dislike about religions is their desire/need to control other people's behavior.

Bowing

Damn straight.

And while I believe religion causes detriment I got no issue with people who keep it to themselves. Free choice. It's when people then decide to infringe upon *my* free choice that I get antsy. Plus the stupid shit that passes for apologetics tends to irritate me.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-01-2014, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 05:06 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
@maklelan Think of it this way. people who die because of excessive alcohol intake are just in a process of natural selection..Wink

I still do not know how religion or atheism has anything to do with excessive drinking.. lol that's just retarded.

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Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
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06-01-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 12:51 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Education is one of the answers. You advocate for some form of gun control, don't you?

Just what makes you think that is some sort of cookie-cutter atheist position? Rolleyes

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06-01-2014, 04:59 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:19 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 01:15 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  According to the CDC, an average of 3,880 people drown every year in the US.

I say we ban immersion baptisms immediately!

One of the silliest attempts at a rhetorical jab I've seen in a while.

It's called Reductio Ad Absurdum, you twat. And Tink ate your fucking lunch with it -- you are just too fucking stupid to figure it out.

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06-01-2014, 05:02 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:28 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  I say don't drink and drive, that can be legislated for.

Now you've reduced the number of alcohol-related deaths by about a third. That's still around four times as many deaths a year as all the wars and national conflicts.

(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  Fair enough, but it did appear to be aimed at me.

You took up an argument against mine, and I assumed it was in defense of the position I directly challenged. My bad for assuming.

(06-01-2014 01:02 PM)joben1 Wrote:  You don't know me.

Nothing in your comments indicates to me that you have some special cognizance of all arguments, but the way you're responding to me does indicate that, at the very least, you've not dealt directly with my specific argument before. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but simply telling me that you know all arguments isn't really doing that.


(06-01-2014 12:47 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Alcohol is not going to go away, the same as religion.

You don't share the same goals as many people here.

(06-01-2014 12:47 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Well I said "I know you're gonna say "well good for you, but...." obviously meaning that you was going to come up with a counter argument that I'd heard before. Then you said "No, you don't know anything about me." Then went on to give a counter argument that I'd heard before.

Well, next time you run across an argument you've seen before, show me you can deal with it and then maybe I'll believe you. "Yeah, heard that before" doesn't really blow my hair back.

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(06-01-2014 02:36 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  In that case, I can't help but wonder why you mentioned it in the first place.

Then maybe you need to pay better attention.

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  My apologies, you're right, of course. The term I meant to use was "psychoactive drugs".

So what are you doing to campaign against the dangers of alcohol besides just not using it?

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Can you post it again?

Of course.

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  And I explained to you why that was not an answer to my question. I asked you why atheism justifies the use of alcohol, not why atheists do so.

"Atheism" is used metonymically for "atheists." Certainly you're aware of such usage.

(06-01-2014 02:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You too would (and in fact have already) make an objection if I were to assert that Mormonism justifies delusional thinking on the basis that some Mormons attribute magical powers to their underwear.

Well, I'd first correct your misunderstanding of clinical delusion, and then I'd point out that I made clear I was speaking in generalities, and have yet to be shown incorrect. At most, a couple atheists have insisted they don't drink and discourage it when they're asked about it, which really doesn't undermine at all my point that the level of commitment given to railing against religion for its ostensible dangers ought to be at the very least matched, if not exceeded, by the commitment to railing against the many times more dangerous scourge of alcohol. Given that the actual level of commitment appears to limp along just above zero, the notion that the zeal shown here is a result of religion's dangers is a ridiculous pretext and nothing more.

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06-01-2014, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 05:07 PM by maklelan.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 03:19 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Can't belive I will bite on the religion/alcohol beef, but...

I would like to see the numbers showing how the consumption alcohol has been the cause for more deaths than all of the national wars and confilcts instigated by religious based spats?

I've already twice posted a link to the World Health Organizations report on alcohol and health. This is the last time I'll post the link. See here.

(06-01-2014 03:19 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Go back 100, 1000, 3000 years as I am genuinely curious if it really could be the case.

The WHO report compares annual alcohol-related deaths to annual war-related deaths from 1955, but the numbers get a moderate bump with the two World Wars. This website logs the death tolls for other known military campaigns prior to the twentieth century, but the top two and then one other within the top ten come from the 20th century. It would be interesting to compare the numbers, but the widespread use of alcohol has ebbed and flowed throughout history, and during some era it wasn't used all that much by the largest populations. I don't have the time or the inclination to put together all the numbers, but I agree that it would be interesting. The WHO, by the way, points out that one of the causes of the increase in alcohol-related deaths is the ease of access in developed countries with rising incomes.

(06-01-2014 03:19 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Also, drinking alcohol (among other potentially dangerous behaviors) is not taught to children as psychological blackmale to be taken as truth in order to ignore proven understanding of this world and universe it resides in.

Can you provide any support for this assertion?

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06-01-2014, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 05:15 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 02:58 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 02:43 PM)joben1 Wrote:  All you have said is that alcohol causes great harm and I agree. As far as I can see, that's all you've said on the matter.

No, what I've said is that alcohol causes far more deaths than religion ever could, and that it's disingenuous for atheists to claim to work so hard against a phenomenon on the grounds that it's putatively dangerous while at the same time taking a favorable or occasionally passively negative stance against a far, far more dangerous phenomenon. If you think I'm wrong, you let me know, but I would conclude that far, far, far more atheists think regulation of alcohol is either fine, or even too restrictive, than believe it needs to be further regulated. On the other hand, many, many atheists either advocate for more restriction of the exercise of religion or talk longingly about the days when we can do away with it entirely. I find that egregiously hypocritical.


Yes, just what have you disingenuous fucking atheists done to stop CAT JUGGLING?????




Fucking idiot.


Quote:
(06-01-2014 02:43 PM)joben1 Wrote:  You APPEAR to think that alcohol should be banned, and that is what I have dealt with. Alcohol is going nowhere, just like religion.

I don't think it should be banned, I just think it should be far more regulated. I also think people should think twice before belittling what they claim to be a dangerous phenomenon while blithely supporting one that is demonstrably many times more dangerous. Like I said, my whole case has been aimed at a particular attitude. If your attitude is different, then I have no beef with you.


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06-01-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(06-01-2014 04:50 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  @maklelan Think of it this way. people who die because of excessive alcohol intake are just in a process of natural selection..

And what of the significant portion of those 2.5 million people who are completely innocent, and are only the victims of someone else's drinking? And how about the millions of innocent men, women, and children who are physically and emotionally abused because of someone else's drinking?

(06-01-2014 04:50 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I still do not know how religion or atheism has anything to do with excessive drinking.. lol that's just retarded.

I think there are a lot of things you don't know.

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