[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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02-01-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 03:12 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Exactly - just because the word may not be liked, or sometimes comes with a negative message does not preclude the definifition. Whether there are 10, 100, or 1,000,000 followers - if it walks like a cult...

Intellectually dishonest to not link said churches to what is considered cult behavior.

If you don't mind, could you tell me how a cult walks, and then tell me how you know?

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02-01-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 02:37 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 02:26 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  They are definitely in the minority. But, that in and of itself doesn't make them wrong.

I didn't say that necessarily made them wrong. It's their arguments that make them wrong.

(02-01-2014 02:26 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  and they are respected scholars.

In certain capacities. Carrier does fine work in Classics.

(02-01-2014 02:26 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  your statement "There are far, far more erudite and insightful contributions being made by others" is merely an assertion.

I already pointed to several authors that I suggested be consulted for more information on the psychology and history of religion. You may consult those scholars and see how frequently they promote the work of the mythicist crowd.

(02-01-2014 02:26 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  But, I would like to read more about the history of religions from a variety of sources.

Boyer, Tremlin, Bellah, Guthrie, and Midgley (more on science as religion) are some of the best when it comes to the broad philosophy and psychology of religion. On the history of religion, you're getting into a place where the analysis is best done on specific religions. Armstrong is a decent popular place to start on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Thank you for those recommended authors!
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02-01-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 02:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 02:26 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  They are definitely in the minority. But, that in and of itself doesn't make them wrong. and they are respected scholars.

your statement "There are far, far more erudite and insightful contributions being made by others" is merely an assertion.

But, I would like to read more about the history of religions from a variety of sources.

You might like Dr. Robert N. Bellah's "Religion in Human Evolution ... from the Paleolithic to the Axial age", (he's a pretty..actually VERY famous sociologist from U of Cali..Berkley), or one of the people mentioned above, Thomas Verenna's things : http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Verenna

Thank you!
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02-01-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 03:14 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Sometimes religious rhetoric can be misconstrued and blown out of proportion, often because of rhetoric is unthinking and insensitive, and I strongly oppose such rhetoric.

Ah see what you did here with all the rhetoric- nice one! You are damn good!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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02-01-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 03:14 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 02:58 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I get what you are saying but when there is the level of control and brainwashing that goes on sometimes the word Cult is applicable.

I appreciate you taking the time to flesh out your position with me here, and I feel bad that I keep coming back with objections, but I've got another one here. Control is one thing, but the entire notion of brainwashing was dismissed by psychologists back in the early 90s when the anti-cult and counter-cult movements finally ran up against actual science and lost their legitimation. You'll notice if you take a look at scholarship on "cults" and "brainwashing" that there aren't really any legitimate publications in academic journals after around 1995. That's when the medical and scientific community finally figured out that the "cult" rhetoric was being propped up by shoddy science executed by the same anti- and counter-cultists.

(02-01-2014 02:58 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Having families completely shun children because they leave the faith is cult activity and it has real world consequences. There are some people here that have had that happen and it is traumatic.

I agree with that, and I vehemently, vehemently oppose any such behavior. I have run across that on occasion within the LDS communities I've been a part of, but I can guarantee it's in complete and direct violation of the standards and values taught by the central church and its hierarchy. Sometimes religious rhetoric can be misconstrued and blown out of proportion, often because of rhetoric is unthinking and insensitive, and I strongly oppose such rhetoric.

Would you rather the word Indoctrination? I also know not everyone does that which is why I said LDS was moving away from it but still acted that way from time to time. LDS is not the worst offender with shunning people (Jehovah's Witness probably is) but it does happen and I am less inclined to forgive and forget when it has affected people who I consider friends.

Ultimately where I am with religion and the religious is this, I am a live and let live person. I have many friends that are religious to some degree and I enjoy talking with them. As long as they do not try to legislate their religion and force others to follow them I don't much care what they believe. I think most of it is silly superstition but whatever lets you sleep at night. However I do have a problem with organised religion because that to me is a power grab. The catholic church is the model for the mafia and has been much more successful for much longer and every other church is just a mini-me version of that monstrosity. LDS has fought tooth and nail against equality in the US, the Fundies in the south are trying to take science out of the classroom and replace it with a YEC model that is completely bogus and do I even need to bring up what the catholic church has been up to? That is what motivates me to come to places like this and learn as much as I can to disprove these systems I try to not make it personal with people like you or KC and I have varying levels of success, as I said I am not perfect but then I don't claim to be.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-01-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 03:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Would you rather the word Indoctrination?

I think that's less loaded and problematic a term.

(02-01-2014 03:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I also know not everyone does that which is why I said LDS was moving away from it but still acted that way from time to time. LDS is not the worst offender with shunning people (Jehovah's Witness probably is) but it does happen and I am less inclined to forgive and forget when it has affected people who I consider friends.

Ultimately where I am with religion and the religious is this, I am a live and let live person. I have many friends that are religious to some degree and I enjoy talking with them. As long as they do not try to legislate their religion and force others to follow them I don't much care what they believe. I think most of it is silly superstition but whatever lets you sleep at night. However I do have a problem with organised religion because that to me is a power grab. The catholic church is the model for the mafia and has been much more successful for much longer and every other church is just a mini-me version of that monstrosity. LDS has fought tooth and nail against equality in the US, the Fundies in the south are trying to take science out of the classroom and replace it with a YEC model that is completely bogus and do I even need to bring up what the catholic church has been up to? That is what motivates me to come to places like this and learn as much as I can to disprove these systems I try to not make it personal with people like you or KC and I have varying levels of success, as I said I am not perfect but then I don't claim to be.

I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush, but I can certainly understand your concerns. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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02-01-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 02:41 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 01:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Gods are generally deemed to be supernatural thus unobservable. Thus any "evidence" always falls into the GOTG.

This characterizes a very small portion of the theological worldviews of the world's contemporary religions.

Let's go back to your statement.
(02-01-2014 08:17 AM)maklelan Wrote:  First, it is simply not true that gods are "nowadays, without exception" gods of the gaps, and to suggest otherwise is, again, to take fundamentalistic religions as metonyms for all religion.
So if you are saying that most gods are not GOTGs then what evidences or explainations have been provided for non GOTG gods?
Do you have one example?
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02-01-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So if you are saying that most gods are not GOTGs then what evidences or explainations have been provided for non GOTG gods?
Do you have one example?

Any god worshipped by a society that is not scientifically literate, or any conceptualization of any god held by any individual that rejects, marginalizes, or ignores such questions. The "god of the gaps" is a theological perspective, and it's a perspective that is only held by a remarkably small portion of the global religious community.

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02-01-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 07:02 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So if you are saying that most gods are not GOTGs then what evidences or explainations have been provided for non GOTG gods?
Do you have one example?

Any god worshipped by a society that is not scientifically literate, or any conceptualization of any god held by any individual that rejects, marginalizes, or ignores such questions. The "god of the gaps" is a theological perspective, and it's a perspective that is only held by a remarkably small portion of the global religious community.

I would agree. But isn't that because the "god of the gaps" is a perspective that most likely originated and is held mostly by unbelievers?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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02-01-2014, 08:02 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 07:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I would agree. But isn't that because the "god of the gaps" is a perspective that most likely originated and is held mostly by unbelievers?

Actually it was developed by Henry Drummond, a 19th century Christian theologian who was criticizing appeals to teleological arguments for the existence of God. He said they point to things science can't explain, calling them "gaps which they fill up with God." It's used not uncommonly by Christians to criticize what is perceived as weak faith.

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