[split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
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02-01-2014, 09:06 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 09:11 PM by anonymous66.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 01:54 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 12:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  To be fair I was more flippant to you than you probably deserved and you are correct about the convicted conman statement. Joseph Smith Jr. was convicted of a misdemeanor crime that covers a large swath of undesirables from conmen to vagrants (their terms not mine).

In reality, Smith was never convicted of anything. The evidence that is touted as suggesting that are bills from a judge Neely and constable De Zeng that are ostensibly for a trial, but based on several factors, are known to have actually been for an "examination," or a pretrial hearing which was supposed to have lead to an actual trial by jury. Before that happened, however, Smith was given "leg bail" (i.e., told to scram).

(02-01-2014 12:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  If anything stating it how I did actually weakens my case since even if Smith was a well respected member of the community his tale is so far out of the realm of credible so as to not stand up to scrutiny. I have read the book of Mormon and between the huge amounts of things stated that are impossible to have happened knowing what we know of genetics and archeology and the simple fact that it reads like an 18th century man is trying to sound like he is speaking 16th century english, it comes off as an obvious fraud. The fact that to this day the LDS church acts like a well financed cult tends to confirm my suspicions.

What the Book of Mormon actually says and what it is characterized as saying are different things, and it is not univocal, contrary to popular opinion, but I don't disagree significantly with your assessment of it.


Are you something of an expert on things Mormon?
I've always wondered about the story that Joseph Smith bilked people out of their money by claiming that he could find gold on their land by walking around and looking at the ground through his hat. Any truth to this story?

It's also been suggested that the claims of intermarrying between Jews and American Indians, as claimed by Mormons, has been debunked by modern DNA studies.
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02-01-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 09:06 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 01:54 PM)maklelan Wrote:  In reality, Smith was never convicted of anything. The evidence that is touted as suggesting that are bills from a judge Neely and constable De Zeng that are ostensibly for a trial, but based on several factors, are known to have actually been for an "examination," or a pretrial hearing which was supposed to have lead to an actual trial by jury. Before that happened, however, Smith was given "leg bail" (i.e., told to scram).


What the Book of Mormon actually says and what it is characterized as saying are different things, and it is not univocal, contrary to popular opinion, but I don't disagree significantly with your assessment of it.


Are you something of an expert on things Mormon?
I've always wondered about the story that Joseph Smith bilked people out of their money by claiming that he could find gold on their land by walking around and looking at the ground through his hat. Any truth to this story?

It's also been suggested that the claims of interbreeding between Jews and American Indians, as claimed by Mormons, has been debunked by modern DNA studies.

Not sure about the hat story (it is very murky) but the Genetic thing is 100% no middle eastern blood in the Natives. They are all of Asian descent.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-01-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 08:02 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 07:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I would agree. But isn't that because the "god of the gaps" is a perspective that most likely originated and is held mostly by unbelievers?

Actually it was developed by Henry Drummond, a 19th century Christian theologian who was criticizing appeals to teleological arguments for the existence of God. He said they point to things science can't explain, calling them "gaps which they fill up with God." It's used not uncommonly by Christians to criticize what is perceived as weak faith.

Huh. I wouldn'ta thunk it came from a believer, but I guess it makes sense in context. When did it become such a widely used phrase for "our" side?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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02-01-2014, 10:41 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 10:46 PM by maklelan.)
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 09:06 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Are you something of an expert on things Mormon?

You might say that.

(02-01-2014 09:06 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I've always wondered about the story that Joseph Smith bilked people out of their money by claiming that he could find gold on their land by walking around and looking at the ground through his hat. Any truth to this story?

That he practiced divining with a seer stone as a youth? Yes, it's true. He wasn't walking around with his head in his hat, though. He was charged with disturbing the peace in 1826, but testimony regarding his ability to find stuff was mixed, and the court obviously didn't want to deal with him and just let him go.

(02-01-2014 09:06 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  It's also been suggested that the claims of intermarrying between Jews and American Indians, as claimed by Mormons, has been debunked by modern DNA studies.

Well, the evidence is not in the favor of the traditional reading of the Book of Mormon's demographic claims, but there are numerous ways to interpret its claims about the inhabitants of the Americas, and in addition to the fact that the story does not necessarily demand the presence of Near Eastern DNA in any given Native American specimen, and the DNA profile of Native Americans is constantly changing. Near Eastern links have been found, although not within a timeline relevant to the Book of Mormon. Just back in October, in fact, DNA analysis showed that the ancient Mal'ta people of Siberia, from which 1/3 of Native American's descend, contain genetic links to Europe. No one ever saw that coming. While there's currently no positive evidence linking Native Americans to Near Eastern populations from relevant time lines, to say that such connections are categorically ruled out misrepresents the data and the nature of population genetics as a whole.

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02-01-2014, 10:45 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 09:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Not sure about the hat story (it is very murky) but the Genetic thing is 100% no middle eastern blood in the Natives. They are all of Asian descent.

This simply isn't true. Not only have they definitely found links to Near Eastern populations (from many thousands of years ago), but they discover new connections all the time, and are in no position at all to categorically deny any possible contribution at all from a given population.

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02-01-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 10:28 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Huh. I wouldn'ta thunk it came from a believer, but I guess it makes sense in context. When did it become such a widely used phrase for "our" side?

I think that becomes common toward the end of the twentieth century.

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02-01-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 07:02 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So if you are saying that most gods are not GOTGs then what evidences or explainations have been provided for non GOTG gods?
Do you have one example?

Any god worshipped by a society that is not scientifically literate...
Scientific illiteracy qualifies as a gap.

If I thought that the moon always facing one side towards the Earth was too much of a coincidence and hence was proof of god.
Then this is a God of the Gaps argument. It is beside the point if I am ignorant that scientists have worked out why the moon''s rotation is in sychronisation with its orbit around the Earth.

Do you have another example of a specific god that people believe in which is not "proven" using a GOTGs argument.
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02-01-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 02:11 PM)maklelan Wrote:  If you're interested, you can find my thesis, "The Conceptualization of Deity in the Hebrew Bible in Cognitive Perspective," here.

Anyone who wants to read one amazing piece of OT scholarship, click on that link.
Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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02-01-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 11:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 02:11 PM)maklelan Wrote:  If you're interested, you can find my thesis, "The Conceptualization of Deity in the Hebrew Bible in Cognitive Perspective," here.

Anyone who wants to read one amazing piece of OT scholarship, click on that link.
Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

Did I mention, fanboi? Angel

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02-01-2014, 11:38 PM
RE: [split] maklelan and others discuss evidence
(02-01-2014 11:28 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 11:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Anyone who wants to read one amazing piece of OT scholarship, click on that link.
Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

Did I mention, fanboi? Angel

You did. Tongue And I am.
Read it. It's scholarship, pure and simple. Devoid of anything else. It's exactly what I've been saying for at least a year about the concept of what "divine" and "divinity" meant to the Hebrews.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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