teacher arressted for statutory rape
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02-03-2016, 09:26 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(01-03-2016 11:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, I'm going to voice an apparently minority opinion or two.

First, that I don't think that a sexual relationship between a teenage boy and an adult woman should be illegal.
Do you really think that coercion by the woman is necessary? Do you really believe that there is harm being done?

Also, it should not be a crime for two teenagers to have a sexual relationship.

I also believe that the laws regarding teenage girl/adult man should remain as is.
Yes, there should be a 'double standard'.

So you don't think that a female teacher could use, abuse, manipulate and harm or rape a male youth with/through sex because she's female and he's male? Blink

Does this apply to every teenage male sex encounter or that you don't think boys can be raped? What if the teacher were male, is that different somehow? What if the boy and the teacher were gay? What if the teacher were female but the boy gay?

It sounds like you are saying because teenaged boy are hot for sex that they can't be raped or coerced into inappropriate sex.... is that what you are saying?

Boys do have feelings and they are not solely in their dicks. I... have a very hard time understanding your position here. Is it about penetration? Would your opinion change if the boy were penetrated rather than penetrating? Please explain.

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02-03-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 08:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 12:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think that that route is fraught with potential for misunderstanding. I do also think that teenage boys are equally emotionally unstable as girls and an adult, especially an adult in a position of power, has an immeasurably superior ability to mould that person's identity. So though perhaps teenage boys would love it, it's still to my mind not a good idea. Rather a clear cut law.

I disagree with the implications of "equally emotionally unstable as girls" as males and females have different attitudes and reactions to sex.

Please provide legitimate evidence that teenage boys are more stable in their attitudes and reactions to sex and sexual relationships.

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02-03-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 08:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 07:46 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  If it is illegal for, it should be illegal for all.

Why? You have providecd no reason for that.

Quote:Also, it is only illegal because of the Catholic Church.

Citation needed.

Quote:People were breeding way too quickly, so they came up with that rule.

Citation needed.

Quote:We have far too massive a population for people to be producing kids by the age of 13 or 14, but that would change if there was a massive die off.

This is about sex, not reproduction.

Quote:There are reasons for the current laws, but they are completely arbitrary.

That is precisely my point.

Quote:Nobody ever wants to say the guy that married 13 year olds back in the day were sick or pedophiles. I have asked many and the conclusion is usually that they were not sick or wrong back then, but it is wrong now. It was because the population was lower by far and you usually died between 30 and 40 years old. If things keep going the way they are, the legal age for sex might end up being 25 or 30. That would make any porn containing images of women between 18 and 24 child porn. So, as long as it is illegal for men to have sex with women under 18 even if it is by a single day it is illegal for women to have sex with guys under the age of 18. After all, we don't need the population growing any faster than it already is.

That's a very odd argument.

You want some proof, here is a little. http://www.cybercollege.com/history.htm

At some point in history it was discovered that life-threatening diseases were transmitted through sex.

Many people died as a result of sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis. It was reasoned that the spread of sexual disease could be controlled by placing limitations on sexual partners — a line of reasoning that was especially important before safe sex practices were available.


Next, before effective birth control, sex commonly resulted in pregnancy. Church leaders wisely observed that a woman could theoretically get pregnant every year of her marriage. Back when women married in their teens, this could mean a great many children. Plus, in those days many women died in child birth.

Because of centuries of the "sex-is-sin" thinking — thinking that has been conveyed through what became "traditional values" and supporting law — sex has evolved into an embarrassing and taboo subject. It has only been in recent years that fundamentalist Christian belief has started to deal with human sexuality in an open and positive (although still very restrictive) way.
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02-03-2016, 10:16 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 09:23 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 08:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  They're clueless hormonal idiots. And adult in a power position is going to be able to control them however they want.

However, if there's research that can be referenced I'm willing to have my mind changed. But on the face of it, no way, no how.

While I agree with you on the end result, Chas is right when he mentionned that men and women (and by extension boys and girls) have different attitudes and reaction to sex and relationship. The only problem, is that despite the differences in behavior between boys and girls, they are both equally easy to manipulate for an adult because both group are tought to trust adults and obey them especially if they are (or seem) nice, carring and honest. Teenager are easy preys for sex predators.

I am only talking about teenage boys and women of whatever age when I ask "Manipulate how? To what end?"

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02-03-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 09:32 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 08:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  I disagree with the implications of "equally emotionally unstable as girls" as males and females have different attitudes and reactions to sex.

Please provide legitimate evidence that teenage boys are more stable in their attitudes and reactions to sex and sexual relationships.

I did not claim they were.

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02-03-2016, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2016 10:27 AM by epronovost.)
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 10:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 09:23 AM)epronovost Wrote:  While I agree with you on the end result, Chas is right when he mentionned that men and women (and by extension boys and girls) have different attitudes and reaction to sex and relationship. The only problem, is that despite the differences in behavior between boys and girls, they are both equally easy to manipulate for an adult because both group are tought to trust adults and obey them especially if they are (or seem) nice, carring and honest. Teenager are easy preys for sex predators.

I am only talking about teenage boys and women of whatever age when I ask "Manipulate how? To what end?"

Manipulated how is a tricky question since there is a plethora of manipulation technics from false choices, false appeal to emotion, appeal to authority/experience, etc all of which are very efficent to manipulate teenagers (and adults sometimes) who rarely notice them for what they are. To what end? Having sexual intercourse and/or a relationship that benefits psychologically almost exclusively one partner both on short, medium and especially long term.

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02-03-2016, 10:26 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 09:15 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Chas

You need to be seriously more clear with your points if you want to have any sort of conversation with me on this subject.

On what ground do you disagree with my analysis of the power dynamic in a couple between a teenager girl/boy vs and adult over the age 24?

I thought it quite clear that I am only talking about the legality of sexual relationships of teenage boys.

Quote:Do you think the word subservient is to strong or that in a relationship one partner (always the same) should be subservient or anything else?

Yes, I think the word 'subservient' is too strong, and that concentrating on power relationships is too narrow.

Quote:If non coercitive relationship that aren't concenting aren't rape how should they be called?

Sorry, but what is a non-coercive, non-consenting relationship? Consider

Quote:Why should they be have a unique term to define them since there is already several degrees of rape much like there is different degrees of murder?

Sex between a teenage boy and an adult woman is not necessarily rape, you are only defining it as rape. I am rejecting the definition.

Quote:Should non coercitive, but non concenting relationship be legal?

What is a non-coercive, non-consenting relationship? Consider

Quote:How is the fact that most rapists are family member, spouses or friends of their victim not about rape? It informs us of the nature of the relationship between the criminal and its victim and inform us on the dynamic behind most rape. Thus its about rape, unless you were referring only to your personal definition of rape which seems to be narrower than mine.

I am not talking about rapists, why are you?

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02-03-2016, 10:32 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 09:26 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(01-03-2016 11:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, I'm going to voice an apparently minority opinion or two.

First, that I don't think that a sexual relationship between a teenage boy and an adult woman should be illegal.
Do you really think that coercion by the woman is necessary? Do you really believe that there is harm being done?

Also, it should not be a crime for two teenagers to have a sexual relationship.

I also believe that the laws regarding teenage girl/adult man should remain as is.
Yes, there should be a 'double standard'.

So you don't think that a female teacher could use, abuse, manipulate and harm or rape a male youth with/through sex because she's female and he's male? Blink

I am not talking about non-consenting sex.

Quote:Does this apply to every teenage male sex encounter or that you don't think boys can be raped?

Of course boys can be sexually assaulted, but that is not the subject.

Quote:What if the teacher were male, is that different somehow?

Not if the teenaged boy is gay.

Quote:What if the boy and the teacher were gay?

See above.

Quote:What if the teacher were female but the boy gay?

Then it would not likely be consensual.

Quote:It sounds like you are saying because teenaged boy are hot for sex that they can't be raped or coerced into inappropriate sex.... is that what you are saying?

No.

Quote:Boys do have feelings and they are not solely in their dicks. I... have a very hard time understanding your position here. Is it about penetration? Would your opinion change if the boy were penetrated rather than penetrating? Please explain.

I am talking about consensual sex for teenaged males being de-criminalized.

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02-03-2016, 10:45 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2016 10:49 AM by epronovost.)
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
@chas

A coercitive sexual relationship is when someone is arming or threatening to arm a person (physicaly, like kiss me or I punch you or kiss me or socialy/psychologicaly, like I will tell everybody that you cheated on your spouse if you don't have sex with me). In that situation the person doesn't want to have sex, but is forced to by the threat or the arm (or even both).

A non coercitive, non consenting relationship is when the rapist uses other manipulation technic then threat or brute force to have sex like lies and other subterfuges. For exemple, when dear uncle says you are going to play a special doctor game with a 8 years old. The 8 years old agree, but only because he trust that the dear uncle will never do anything wrong. There is no threat nor arm done to force compliance from the 8 years old thus it's not coercive, but neither is it consenting because the 8 years old has complete trust in the dear uncle and very little knowledge on sex and its significance physically, sociall or psychologically. He doesn't know whats comming and if he asked, the dear uncle could spin it in fashion that would make sense. Another exemple would be guilt tripping somebody into doing something you don't feel fine doing. For exemple, if you truly love me Chas you will suck my penis and swallow (imagine for a second we are both gay and in relationship for a second). At first you might refuse, but I could spin my words in such a way that I could make you feel so shitty about yourself that it would seem more correct to do what I want even if you don't want to do it because it makes you feel bad. Guilt can be manipulated very easily and is terribly destructive on a person psyche used in such a way. Teenagers, having frequently rather idealised vision of sex and love for lack of personnal experience and very vulnerable to thess sort of strategies. Do you understand what I mean or would you prefer me to rephrase?

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02-03-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 10:45 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @chas

A coercitive sexual relationship is when someone is arming or threatening to arm a person (physicaly, like kiss me or I punch you or kiss me or socialy/psychologicaly, like I will tell everybody that you cheated on your spouse if you don't have sex with me). In that situation the person doesn't want to have sex, but is forced to by the threat or the arm (or even both).

A non coercitive, non consenting relationship is when the rapist uses other manipulation technic then threat or brute force to have sex like lies and other subterfuges. For exemple, when dear uncle says you are going to play a special doctor game with a 8 years old. The 8 years old agree, but only because he trust that the dear uncle will never do anything wrong. There is no threat nor arm done to force compliance from the 8 years old thus it's not coercive, but neither is it consenting because the 8 years old has complete trust in the dear uncle and very little knowledge on sex and its significance physically, sociall or psychologically. He doesn't know whats comming and if he asked, the dear uncle could spin it in fashion that would make sense. Another exemple would be guilt tripping somebody into doing something you don't feel fine doing. For exemple, if you truly love me Chas you will suck my penis and swallow (imagine for a second we are both gay and in relationship for a second). At first you might refuse, but I could spin my words in such a way that I could make you feel so shitty about yourself that it would seem more correct to do what I want even if you don't want to do it because it makes you feel bad. Guilt can be manipulated very easily and is terribly destructive on a person psyche used in such a way. Teenagers, having frequently rather idealised vision of sex and love for lack of personnal experience and very vulnerable to thess sort of strategies. Do you understand what I mean or would you prefer me to rephrase?

What you describe are all coercive.

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