teacher arressted for statutory rape
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02-03-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
@Chas

Coercive: (adjective) relating to or using force or threat.

According to that definition, no these aren't coercive. Certainly not in the case of my first exemple which is an abuse of trust and a lie. There is no threat, not even an implied one. As for the second one, there is no threat directly involved, but I guess you can have an argument saying that if you love me you will do such and such, there is the you don' love me threat, but since its indirect I would not consider it coercive. For the benefit of the argument we can discard the second one if you wish. How would you say the first exemple was coercive?

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02-03-2016, 11:20 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 11:09 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Chas

Coercive: (adjective) relating to or using force or threat.

According to that definition, no these aren't coercive. Certainly not in the case of my first exemple which is an abuse of trust and a lie. There is no threat, not even an implied one. As for the second one, there is no threat directly involved, but I guess you can have an argument saying that if you love me you will do such and such, there is the you don' love me threat, but since its indirect I would not consider it coercive. For the benefit of the argument we can discard the second one if you wish. How would you say the first exemple was coercive?

co•erce (koʊˈɜrs)

v.t. -erced, -erc•ing.
1. to compel by force or intimidation: to coerce someone into signing a document.
2. to bring about through force; exact: to coerce obedience.
3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.

I am using a broad interpretation of definition 3, but if you don't care for that then I will state that manipulative is is morally equivalent.

So your first example is one of manipulation, but the discussion isn't about 8-year-olds. Please stay on track.

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02-03-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 10:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 09:26 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  So you don't think that a female teacher could use, abuse, manipulate and harm or rape a male youth with/through sex because she's female and he's male? Blink

I am not talking about non-consenting sex.

Quote:Does this apply to every teenage male sex encounter or that you don't think boys can be raped?

Of course boys can be sexually assaulted, but that is not the subject.

Quote:What if the teacher were male, is that different somehow?

Not if the teenaged boy is gay.

Quote:What if the boy and the teacher were gay?

See above.

Quote:What if the teacher were female but the boy gay?

Then it would not likely be consensual.

Quote:It sounds like you are saying because teenaged boy are hot for sex that they can't be raped or coerced into inappropriate sex.... is that what you are saying?

No.

Quote:Boys do have feelings and they are not solely in their dicks. I... have a very hard time understanding your position here. Is it about penetration? Would your opinion change if the boy were penetrated rather than penetrating? Please explain.

I am talking about consensual sex for teenaged males being de-criminalized.

There is a huge range of coercion and manipulation that teens neither know nor understand between consensual sex and rape. Lots of people don't understand when they are being taken advantage of, especially teenagers. Teenage boys are just as vulnerable to STD, unintended pregnancy responsibilities and emotional entrapment. This is exactly why the teen sex barrier is put into place.

Also, you did not address why you think it's okay for boys to have consensual sex and not girls to have consensual sex. Please address that as well.

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02-03-2016, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2016 12:10 PM by epronovost.)
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
@Chas

While its true that the third definition could cover both cases, legally speaking its not always the case. In some places for a relationship to be coercive you need to show clear signs of it. Lets use both the term manipulative and coercive to describe relationship that can be qualifed as rape from then on so we can start to discuss ideas. My exemple of the 8 years old was simply to illustrate the concept of a non coercive yet non consenting relationship. Since I just agreed to solve the categorisation issue in this post, we don't need to talk about it anymore.

To return to the core of the subject, teenager boys are just as vulnerable than teenager girls to manipulative technics (AKA are super easy to control by exploiting their fear, anxiety, inexperience, perceptions of gender role, etc.) for the same reason. Both group, while having different vision of sex and love relationship are both largely ignorant of how they really are because of equal lack of experience, especially next to an adult about 10 years older. Remember, there is no prohibition for a teenager to have sex with an adult if they are 16 unless they have more than 8 years difference of age. Thus adult + teenager couples can exist and be legal and even ethical. Teenager boys aren't more experienced than teenager girls neither are they more astute in those circomstances and I don't see any reason to believe this. I don't see any reason to believe that adult women attempting to have relationship with teenager boys almost ten year younger than they are are less prone to be manipulative than men who would do the same with girls. In fact, considering the disproportion in term of sexual and social maturity between a 16 years old and a 30 years old, one can seriously wonder how this relationship can be healthy and doubt that the 16 years old might not have the capacity and the authonomy to hold his ground in case of problems (which invariably happen in all love-relationship).

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02-03-2016, 12:06 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2016 12:14 PM by Chas.)
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 11:38 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 10:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am not talking about non-consenting sex.


Of course boys can be sexually assaulted, but that is not the subject.


Not if the teenaged boy is gay.


See above.


Then it would not likely be consensual.


No.


I am talking about consensual sex for teenaged males being de-criminalized.

There is a huge range of coercion and manipulation that teens neither know nor understand between consensual sex and rape. Lots of people don't understand when they are being taken advantage of, especially teenagers. Teenage boys are just as vulnerable to STD, unintended pregnancy responsibilities and emotional entrapment. This is exactly why the teen sex barrier is put into place.

That not actually true. The barrier is a largely arbitrary age below which it is stipulated that a teen is incapable of consent, hence consensual sex is not possible.

Wikipedia Wrote:In statutory rape, overt force or threat is usually not present. Statutory rape laws presume coercion, because a minor or mentally handicapped adult is legally incapable of giving consent to the act.

Quote:Also, you did not address why you think it's okay for boys to have consensual sex and not girls to have consensual sex. Please address that as well.

I did, actually. I don't see the dangers of coercion and manipulation by women against teen boys to be nearly as likely or damaging as that of men against teen girls.

However, you said consensual sex, in which case it should not be criminal.

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02-03-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 11:45 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Chas

hile its true that the third definition could cover both cases, legally speaking its not always the case. In some places for a relationship to be coercive you need to show clear signs of it. Lets use both the term manipulative and coercive to describe relationship that can be qualifed as rape from then on so we can start to discuss ideas. My exemple of the 8 years old was simply to illustrate the concept of a non coercive yet non consenting relationship. Since I just agreed to solve the categorisation issue in this post, we don't need to talk about it anymore.

Let's simply differentiate by using consensual and non-consensual.

Quote:To return to the core of the subject, teenager boys are just as vulnerable than teenager girls to manipulative technics (AKA are super easy to control by exploiting their fear, anxiety, inexperience, perceptions of gender role, etc.) for the same reason. Both group, while having different vision of sex and love relationship are both largely ignorant of how they really are because of equal lack of experience, especially next to an adult about 10 years older. Remember, there is no prohibition for a teenager to have sex with an adult if they are 16 unless they have more than 8 years difference of age. Thus adult + teenager couples can exist and be legal and even ethical. Teenager boys aren't more experienced than teenager girls neither are they more astute in those circomstances and I don't see any reason to believe this. I don't see any reason to believe that adult women attempting to have relationship with teenager boys almost ten year younger than they are are less prone to be manipulative than men who would do the same with girls. In fact, considering the disproportion in term of sexual and social maturity between a 16 years old and a 30 years old, one can seriously wonder how this relationship can be healthy and doubt that the 16 years old might not have the capacity and the authonomy to hold his ground in case of problems (which invariably happen in all love-relationship).

In most jurisdictions in the U.S. it is the age of the minor that is the sole determing factor in defining statutory rape. So an 18 year-old and a 17 year-old having sex would be illegal.

Wikipedia Wrote:In some common law jurisdictions, statutory rape is sexual activity in which at least one person is below the age required to legally consent to the behavior. Although it usually refers to adults engaging in sex with minors under the age of consent, it is a generic term, and very few jurisdictions use the actual term statutory rape in the language of statutes.

Different jurisdictions use many different statutory terms for the crime, such as sexual assault (SA), rape of a child (ROAC), corruption of a minor (COAM), unlawful sex with a minor (USWAM), carnal knowledge of a minor (CKOAM), unlawful carnal knowledge (UCK), sexual battery or simply carnal knowledge.

In statutory rape, overt force or threat is usually not present. Statutory rape laws presume coercion, because a minor or mentally handicapped adult is legally incapable of giving consent to the act.

My real point is that the mandatory application of the law that includes arbitrary lines is not just. And I claim that the incidence of harm to a teenage boy by having a sexual encounter/relationship with an older woman is low; I believe it is positive far more often than not.

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02-03-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 12:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 11:38 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  There is a huge range of coercion and manipulation that teens neither know nor understand between consensual sex and rape. Lots of people don't understand when they are being taken advantage of, especially teenagers. Teenage boys are just as vulnerable to STD, unintended pregnancy responsibilities and emotional entrapment. This is exactly why the teen sex barrier is put into place.

That not actually true. The barrier is a largely arbitrary age below which it is stipulated that a teen is incapable of consent, hence consensual sex is not possible.

Wikipedia Wrote:In statutory rape, overt force or threat is usually not present. Statutory rape laws presume coercion, because a minor or mentally handicapped adult is legally incapable of giving consent to the act.

Quote:Also, you did not address why you think it's okay for boys to have consensual sex and not girls to have consensual sex. Please address that as well.

I did, actually. I don't see the dangers of coercion and manipulation by women against teen boys to be nearly as likely or damaging as that of men against teen girls.

However, you said consensual sex, in which case it should not be criminal.


You stated this: "I also believe that the laws regarding teenage girl/adult man should remain as is. Yes, there should be a 'double standard'. "

So either it's consensual for teenage boy and girls or it isn't. Their gender does not determine consent. Why would you think it is different for different gender? Are you stating girls are incapable of giving consent, where boys are? Please clarify.

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02-03-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 12:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 11:38 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  There is a huge range of coercion and manipulation that teens neither know nor understand between consensual sex and rape. Lots of people don't understand when they are being taken advantage of, especially teenagers. Teenage boys are just as vulnerable to STD, unintended pregnancy responsibilities and emotional entrapment. This is exactly why the teen sex barrier is put into place.

That not actually true. The barrier is a largely arbitrary age below which it is stipulated that a teen is incapable of consent, hence consensual sex is not possible.

Wikipedia Wrote:In statutory rape, overt force or threat is usually not present. Statutory rape laws presume coercion, because a minor or mentally handicapped adult is legally incapable of giving consent to the act.

Quote:Also, you did not address why you think it's okay for boys to have consensual sex and not girls to have consensual sex. Please address that as well.

I did, actually. I don't see the dangers of coercion and manipulation by women against teen boys to be nearly as likely or damaging as that of men against teen girls.

However, you said consensual sex, in which case it should not be criminal.

Is it not possible for a teenage female to consent with an adult? One sex's brain isn't significantly different compared to the other. How can one be legit while the other is creepy and sleazy?

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02-03-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 12:19 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 12:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  That not actually true. The barrier is a largely arbitrary age below which it is stipulated that a teen is incapable of consent, hence consensual sex is not possible.



I did, actually. I don't see the dangers of coercion and manipulation by women against teen boys to be nearly as likely or damaging as that of men against teen girls.

However, you said consensual sex, in which case it should not be criminal.


You stated this: "I also believe that the laws regarding teenage girl/adult man should remain as is. Yes, there should be a 'double standard'. "

So either it's consensual for teenage boy and girls or it isn't. Their gender does not determine consent. Why would you think it is different for different gender? Are you stating girls are incapable of giving consent, where boys are? Please clarify.

I am making a consequential argument. There are serious harmful consequences to a teen girl that cannot happen to a teen boy. Note, I said there should be a double standard.

Wikipedia Wrote:The original purpose of statutory rape laws was to protect young, unwed females from males who might impregnate them and not take responsibility by providing support for the child.

Many jurisdictions have either a lesser charge/penalty or none at all for small differences in age, or both being minors.

The laws against a teen boy being introduced to sex by an older woman are very new.

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02-03-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: teacher arressted for statutory rape
(02-03-2016 12:21 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 12:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  That not actually true. The barrier is a largely arbitrary age below which it is stipulated that a teen is incapable of consent, hence consensual sex is not possible.



I did, actually. I don't see the dangers of coercion and manipulation by women against teen boys to be nearly as likely or damaging as that of men against teen girls.

However, you said consensual sex, in which case it should not be criminal.

Is it not possible for a teenage female to consent with an adult? One sex's brain isn't significantly different compared to the other. How can one be legit while the other is creepy and sleazy?

Please do not put words in my mouth.

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