the God term
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27-04-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: the God term
I deny the existence of god the same way I deny the existence of Santa Claus. They're both fictional characters designed to elicit specific behavior in those that believe in them. If Santa brings gifts to good children, and doesn't for kids who are naughty, then the kid might try to be good in order to get a cookie. God is Santa Claus for "grown-ups". Be good, and daddy's got a whopper of an eternal cookie for ya.

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27-04-2013, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2013 06:41 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 12:36 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 11:45 AM)childeye Wrote:  I'm not blind to the history of those who claimed to know and believe in the christ and yet acted contrary to the Spirit of The Christ. Your either\ors do not take into account all the variables in my view. I admit you ask a fair question when you wonder where I learned Christianity. Please allow me to decline to answer. I am not yet comfortable sharing that on this forum.

I actually meant the History of the formation of christianity and my either or was not a universal statement. Not everyone has that choice it was meant just for you. Based on what I have read of your views and responses to questions those are the only 2 conclusions I can draw.

Sometimes you use the bible to defend your point other times you disavow the same source. You claim to be a christian but yet seem to follow none of the tenants required to be a christian (don't feel bad most of today's christians do exactly that). You mentioned growing up as a catholic but leaving that faith.

Your story about your mother suggests you grew up in a broken home with no father figure and a very estranged relationship with your mother until shortly before her death. So adding those pieces together it does paint a very clear picture of your formational beliefs.

1 You are not as dumb as you play at when asked questions you don't like the answers to. 2 Early childhood trauma (such as the rejection of a parent) tends to leave a large psychological gap that needs to be filled. 3 You never found anyone to fill that gap, despite trying as hard as you could. 4 The rejection of an organised faith allows you the opportunity to construct your perfect replacement for what is missing in your life

Thus God=love to you because that is what you most want and need but can not obtain. So you ever been married? Did it end badly? Trust issues? It's ok you are not alone. We all have doubts and insecurities it's part of being Human.

To fully answer your question of what God is to an atheist it is the purest form of wishful thinking. It comforts people to think that out there in the cold cruel world someone is looking out for them, making sure they have everything they need. If they ever need anything really really badly they will get it because they believe they are "good people" and bad things don't happen to good people. God is the reason for and cause of everything that happens to them so it is not their fault if things don't go as planned. "God works in mysterious ways" quote the faithful whenever something bad happens. "His ways are not our ways" to excuse all the genocide and horror contained in the Bible. Ultimately God is a construct that people give of themselves to ease conscience and feel a sense of serenity. But that comes at a great cost because the more you give to your fantasy the less you have of yourself. God says nothing but people claim to hear him in everything, he gives a ready excuse to hate anyone who is not exactly the same as you. I leave you with this thought "Let go and let God" is a popular saying and the implications are clear "You are not in control stop thinking and do as you are told".
You wrote an excellent and thoughtful post. I do require love or desire to believe in Love. I am married and have children and grand children all of whom I Love and want them to believe. Indeed the tale of how my marriage was threatened is also how I came to know Christ. In my view you have competently addressed the issue forthrightly, concerning my personal trauma as a child and my search of whether Love can be trusted and my insecurities about whether Love endures all things. Hence my fascination with the Christ, not with religion.

Therefore you err when saying this, "God says nothing but people claim to hear him in everything, he gives a ready excuse to hate anyone who is not exactly the same as you". I do not dispute that god is a construct of the corrupt mind for those who would find reason to hate people not like themselves. Including the atheists. You simply call it no god instead of god. But this is not the Image of God seen in the Christ who Loved his enemies and forgave them even as they crucified him. He finds the reasons to forgive and not hate others. He knows why he must return good for evil. Also you speak as if I assume bad things don't happen to good people. This is not true either since the Christ who I view as good, received bad things in this world. Also I don't think I play dumb. Sometimes I am just dumb when it comes to some things, or perhaps I misunderstand the questions. I definitely am not afraid of the answers.

But here is where I must commend you revenant77, with all sincerity. This is the best and most succinct atheist definition of God that I have encountered on this entire thread. I dare say I do not think it can be outdone. You said this: To fully answer your question of what God is to an atheist it is the purest form of wishful thinking.

In many ways, this is my definition of God as well. The only difference is that, before I knew the Christ when my mind was still corrupt, I did not think of it nor could I. It (the True Image of God) was presented to me through revelation, and I believed because I saw the Truth of it even as it revealed my corruption. Indeed the Christ is now my purest form of wishful thinking. Consequently this Image is not of this world which you accurately describe as a cruel world. Therefore it brings me hope. But scripture says all of this as it describes the god of this world as blinding people from the Truth. To me the atheist thinks the Christ is a construct of man even though all scripture about him says the exact opposite as do all True Christians. But I understand that this cannot be proven. It is meant to be that way. The atheist does not comprehend that the Christ is not meant as a means to fool the gullible. Nor is there to be anyone in charge of deciphering scripture or telling others what it is they are supposed to be believing as a Christian. Even scripture says this. I have no doubt therefore that you all think I am childish and should grow up and face the reality that the world is cruel. Please understand that I have faced much cruelty in my life and yet I am clean and Love you all. I know I sound crazy.

Thanks Revenant 77 for your compassion. As in the story of The Princess Bride I say unto you, "As you wish".
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27-04-2013, 06:46 PM
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 12:46 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 12:32 PM)childeye Wrote:  It is not the same logic. It is the reverse so to speak. An anti logic based on the reversal of the meanings of terms. Darkness is not equal to light anymore than good is equal to evil. Nonetheless even the foolishess of illogic at least contemplates the axiom.

Semantic word game arguments won't win here. You yourself conceded that your concept of love is defined in opposition to darkness and evil.

"Nonetheless even the foolishess of illogic at least contemplates the axiom." Laughat Fine example of word salad. WTF is that supposed to mean?
It means any way you slice it dung is not the same as food, the Light is not equal to darkness, and knowledge is not the same as ignorance. Therefore good is not the same as evil.
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27-04-2013, 06:48 PM
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 01:32 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I deny the existence of god the same way I deny the existence of Santa Claus. They're both fictional characters designed to elicit specific behavior in those that believe in them. If Santa brings gifts to good children, and doesn't for kids who are naughty, then the kid might try to be good in order to get a cookie. God is Santa Claus for "grown-ups". Be good, and daddy's got a whopper of an eternal cookie for ya.
I understand completely. I used to believe the same way.
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27-04-2013, 06:52 PM
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 11:35 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 06:21 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  So is this correct?

God is love, the first cause of the universe, exists everywhere and is also the christian god?
I'm saying that I belive there is a purpose for the universe and for our existence. And I also believe that the purpose is to show why Love is to be valued.

You do realize that atheists also find their own meaning in life, and many do think that the altruistic approach (love,caring,etc) to life is the best?

Also don't you think the religious purpose of reality and life is very crazy? To worship god, so that he can destroy everything, and we can be on the winning side?

I think life means a lot more than the worship of undetectable super intelligence.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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27-04-2013, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 07:45 AM by evenheathen.)
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 06:31 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 12:36 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I actually meant the History of the formation of christianity and my either or was not a universal statement. Not everyone has that choice it was meant just for you. Based on what I have read of your views and responses to questions those are the only 2 conclusions I can draw.

Sometimes you use the bible to defend your point other times you disavow the same source. You claim to be a christian but yet seem to follow none of the tenants required to be a christian (don't feel bad most of today's christians do exactly that). You mentioned growing up as a catholic but leaving that faith.

Your story about your mother suggests you grew up in a broken home with no father figure and a very estranged relationship with your mother until shortly before her death. So adding those pieces together it does paint a very clear picture of your formational beliefs.

1 You are not as dumb as you play at when asked questions you don't like the answers to. 2 Early childhood trauma (such as the rejection of a parent) tends to leave a large psychological gap that needs to be filled. 3 You never found anyone to fill that gap, despite trying as hard as you could. 4 The rejection of an organised faith allows you the opportunity to construct your perfect replacement for what is missing in your life

Thus God=love to you because that is what you most want and need but can not obtain. So you ever been married? Did it end badly? Trust issues? It's ok you are not alone. We all have doubts and insecurities it's part of being Human.

To fully answer your question of what God is to an atheist it is the purest form of wishful thinking. It comforts people to think that out there in the cold cruel world someone is looking out for them, making sure they have everything they need. If they ever need anything really really badly they will get it because they believe they are "good people" and bad things don't happen to good people. God is the reason for and cause of everything that happens to them so it is not their fault if things don't go as planned. "God works in mysterious ways" quote the faithful whenever something bad happens. "His ways are not our ways" to excuse all the genocide and horror contained in the Bible. Ultimately God is a construct that people give of themselves to ease conscience and feel a sense of serenity. But that comes at a great cost because the more you give to your fantasy the less you have of yourself. God says nothing but people claim to hear him in everything, he gives a ready excuse to hate anyone who is not exactly the same as you. I leave you with this thought "Let go and let God" is a popular saying and the implications are clear "You are not in control stop thinking and do as you are told".
You wrote an excellent and thoughtful post. I do require love or desire to believe in Love. I am married and have children and grand children all of whom I Love and want them to believe. Indeed the tale of how my marriage was threatened is also how I came to know Christ. In my view you have competently addressed the issue forthrightly, concerning my personal trauma as a child and my search of whether Love can be trusted and my insecurities about whether Love endures all things. Hence my fascination with the Christ, not with religion.

Therefore you err when saying this, "God says nothing but people claim to hear him in everything, he gives a ready excuse to hate anyone who is not exactly the same as you". I do not dispute that god is a construct of the corrupt mind for those who would find reason to hate people not like themselves. Including the atheists. You simply call it no god instead of god. But this is not the Image of God seen in the Christ who Loved his enemies and forgave them even as they crucified him. He finds the reasons to forgive and not hate others. He knows why he must return good for evil. Also you speak as if I assume bad things don't happen to good people. This is not true either since the Christ who I view as good, received bad things in this world. Also I don't think I play dumb. Sometimes I am just dumb when it comes to some things, or perhaps I misunderstand the questions. I definitely am not afraid of the answers.

But here is where I must commend you revenant77, with all sincerity. This is the best and most succinct atheist definition of God that I have encountered on this entire thread. I dare say I do not think it can be outdone. You said this: To fully answer your question of what God is to an atheist it is the purest form of wishful thinking.

In many ways, this is my definition of God as well. The only difference is that, before I knew the Christ when my mind was still corrupt, I did not think of it nor could I. It (the True Image of God) was presented to me through revelation, and I believed because I saw the Truth of it even as it revealed my corruption. Indeed the Christ is now my purest form of wishful thinking. Consequently this Image is not of this world which you accurately describe as a cruel world. Therefore it brings me hope. But scripture says all of this as it describes the god of this world as blinding people from the Truth. To me the atheist thinks the Christ is a construct of man even though all scripture about him says the exact opposite as do all True Christians. But I understand that this cannot be proven. It is meant to be that way. The atheist does not comprehend that the Christ is not meant as a means to fool the gullible. Nor is there to be anyone in charge of deciphering scripture or telling others what it is they are supposed to be believing as a Christian. Even scripture says this. I have no doubt therefore that you all think I am childish and should grow up and face the reality that the world is cruel. Please understand that I have faced much cruelty in my life and yet I am clean and Love you all. I know I sound crazy.

Thanks Revenant 77 for your compassion. As in the story of The Princess Bride I say unto you, "As you wish".

This is all I've been trying to get you to admit from the get go. Thank you. I apologize for being so rude previously, I had been drinking, no excuse I know. Do you see why it's so frustrating trying to talk to someone who wont admit even the possiblilty of being wrong?

As an atheist, I know it's a possibility that I am wrong. However I've done my homework considering the veracity of what I believe. When you show up to converse and simply ignore all of our talking points, it can be very off putting.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-04-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 06:31 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 12:36 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I actually meant the History of the formation of christianity and my either or was not a universal statement. Not everyone has that choice it was meant just for you. Based on what I have read of your views and responses to questions those are the only 2 conclusions I can draw.

Sometimes you use the bible to defend your point other times you disavow the same source. You claim to be a christian but yet seem to follow none of the tenants required to be a christian (don't feel bad most of today's christians do exactly that). You mentioned growing up as a catholic but leaving that faith.

Your story about your mother suggests you grew up in a broken home with no father figure and a very estranged relationship with your mother until shortly before her death. So adding those pieces together it does paint a very clear picture of your formational beliefs.

1 You are not as dumb as you play at when asked questions you don't like the answers to. 2 Early childhood trauma (such as the rejection of a parent) tends to leave a large psychological gap that needs to be filled. 3 You never found anyone to fill that gap, despite trying as hard as you could. 4 The rejection of an organised faith allows you the opportunity to construct your perfect replacement for what is missing in your life

Thus God=love to you because that is what you most want and need but can not obtain. So you ever been married? Did it end badly? Trust issues? It's ok you are not alone. We all have doubts and insecurities it's part of being Human.

To fully answer your question of what God is to an atheist it is the purest form of wishful thinking. It comforts people to think that out there in the cold cruel world someone is looking out for them, making sure they have everything they need. If they ever need anything really really badly they will get it because they believe they are "good people" and bad things don't happen to good people. God is the reason for and cause of everything that happens to them so it is not their fault if things don't go as planned. "God works in mysterious ways" quote the faithful whenever something bad happens. "His ways are not our ways" to excuse all the genocide and horror contained in the Bible. Ultimately God is a construct that people give of themselves to ease conscience and feel a sense of serenity. But that comes at a great cost because the more you give to your fantasy the less you have of yourself. God says nothing but people claim to hear him in everything, he gives a ready excuse to hate anyone who is not exactly the same as you. I leave you with this thought "Let go and let God" is a popular saying and the implications are clear "You are not in control stop thinking and do as you are told".
You wrote an excellent and thoughtful post. I do require love or desire to believe in Love. I am married and have children and grand children all of whom I Love and want them to believe. Indeed the tale of how my marriage was threatened is also how I came to know Christ. In my view you have competently addressed the issue forthrightly, concerning my personal trauma as a child and my search of whether Love can be trusted and my insecurities about whether Love endures all things. Hence my fascination with the Christ, not with religion.

Therefore you err when saying this, "God says nothing but people claim to hear him in everything, he gives a ready excuse to hate anyone who is not exactly the same as you". I do not dispute that god is a construct of the corrupt mind for those who would find reason to hate people not like themselves. Including the atheists. You simply call it no god instead of god. But this is not the Image of God seen in the Christ who Loved his enemies and forgave them even as they crucified him. He finds the reasons to forgive and not hate others. He knows why he must return good for evil. Also you speak as if I assume bad things don't happen to good people. This is not true either since the Christ who I view as good, received bad things in this world. Also I don't think I play dumb. Sometimes I am just dumb when it comes to some things, or perhaps I misunderstand the questions. I definitely am not afraid of the answers.

But here is where I must commend you revenant77, with all sincerity. This is the best and most succinct atheist definition of God that I have encountered on this entire thread. I dare say I do not think it can be outdone. You said this: To fully answer your question of what God is to an atheist it is the purest form of wishful thinking.

In many ways, this is my definition of God as well. The only difference is that, before I knew the Christ when my mind was still corrupt, I did not think of it nor could I. It (the True Image of God) was presented to me through revelation, and I believed because I saw the Truth of it even as it revealed my corruption. Indeed the Christ is now my purest form of wishful thinking. Consequently this Image is not of this world which you accurately describe as a cruel world. Therefore it brings me hope. But scripture says all of this as it describes the god of this world as blinding people from the Truth. To me the atheist thinks the Christ is a construct of man even though all scripture about him says the exact opposite as do all True Christians. But I understand that this cannot be proven. It is meant to be that way. The atheist does not comprehend that the Christ is not meant as a means to fool the gullible. Nor is there to be anyone in charge of deciphering scripture or telling others what it is they are supposed to be believing as a Christian. Even scripture says this. I have no doubt therefore that you all think I am childish and should grow up and face the reality that the world is cruel. Please understand that I have faced much cruelty in my life and yet I am clean and Love you all. I know I sound crazy.

Thanks Revenant 77 for your compassion. As in the story of The Princess Bride I say unto you, "As you wish".

Well I'm glad I could finally answer your question. So do you now understand how we can say that as Atheists we don't hate god we just dislike his messengers. I know a few people that have a similar story as yours so I am happy to hear you have a good family life not everyone can overcome their trails. Are there any other questions you have for us?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-04-2013, 11:34 PM
RE: the God term
(27-04-2013 06:48 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 01:32 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I deny the existence of god the same way I deny the existence of Santa Claus. They're both fictional characters designed to elicit specific behavior in those that believe in them. If Santa brings gifts to good children, and doesn't for kids who are naughty, then the kid might try to be good in order to get a cookie. God is Santa Claus for "grown-ups". Be good, and daddy's got a whopper of an eternal cookie for ya.
I understand completely. I used to believe the same way.

So, you use to be rational and now you're not.

How did that happen ? Car wreck ? Brain damage ? That crazy rock and roll music that all the hip kids are listening to ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-04-2013, 04:37 AM
RE: the God term
Ya gotta hand it to him. 137 pages and he's still going.

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28-04-2013, 06:11 AM
RE: the God term
(28-04-2013 04:37 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Ya gotta hand it to him. 137 pages and he's still going in circles.
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