the God term
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28-04-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: the God term
(28-04-2013 01:14 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 07:39 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So do you now understand how we can say that as Atheists we don't hate god we just dislike his messengers.
I understand what you mean. Still they are not His messengers I think you hate.

Quote: Are there any other questions you have for us?
Yes. Bucky ball said that atheists agree that love is the highest human value as do I. I describe it as The self sacrificing Spirit of Love. To me it is the purest form of wishful thinking as pertains to morality. So it seems like hypocritical reasoning to claim both Love the highest value yet shouldn't be believed in. So this remains in question.

Insofar as that goes I would say that love is one of the highest Values we as a species can strive but not exclusively. In that list I would add the pursuit of Knowledge. Without the other neither can really be useful. Love without Knowledge is blind and dangerous Knowledge without love is destructive. This is of course a simplification of a very complex interaction but I hope you can understand what I intend.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-04-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: the God term
bump, bumppity, bump
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28-04-2013, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 02:57 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(28-04-2013 02:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-04-2013 01:14 PM)childeye Wrote:  I understand what you mean. Still they are not His messengers I think you hate.

Yes. Bucky ball said that atheists agree that love is the highest human value as do I. I describe it as The self sacrificing Spirit of Love. To me it is the purest form of wishful thinking as pertains to morality. So it seems like hypocritical reasoning to claim both Love the highest value yet shouldn't be believed in. So this remains in question.

Insofar as that goes I would say that love is one of the highest Values we as a species can strive but not exclusively. In that list I would add the pursuit of Knowledge. Without the other neither can really be useful. Love without Knowledge is blind and dangerous Knowledge without love is destructive. This is of course a simplification of a very complex interaction but I hope you can understand what I intend.
Actually I think you said that quite well. You are right, this gets somewhat complicated. Nontheless I submit that Love and knowledge would not contradict one another in the truest sense of the terms. One would witness to the other. Hence God is Love is rational to the reasoning of the spiritual mind but irrational to the carnal mind. Consequently I stand by the belief that God is the purest form of wishful thinking partcularly in a cruel world that rationalizes only upon a self servitude to only carnal desires. This does not explain the contradiction of unbelief of the atheist, who holds both knowledge and self sacrificng Love in high esteem in a cruel world, yet does not believe in the purest form of wishful thinking.
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28-04-2013, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2013 08:47 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: the God term
Ya know what I don't understand? Justin Bieber. Know what I do about it? I don't go there. So why are you here? Consider

I mean, if you're like me and my Gwynnies, just going on 'cause you're so full of it and cannot help yourself; well, I really can't take exception to that. But it still seems like you're trying to sell us something. And you definitely seem to have your own definitions for things. Perhaps part of the problem is your non-standard use of terms. Undecided

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28-04-2013, 03:12 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 03:32 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: the God term

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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28-04-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: the God term
(28-04-2013 02:51 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(28-04-2013 02:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Insofar as that goes I would say that love is one of the highest Values we as a species can strive but not exclusively. In that list I would add the pursuit of Knowledge. Without the other neither can really be useful. Love without Knowledge is blind and dangerous Knowledge without love is destructive. This is of course a simplification of a very complex interaction but I hope you can understand what I intend.
Actually I think you said that quite well. You are right, this gets somewhat complicated. Nontheless I submit that Love and knowledge would not contradict one another in the truest sense of the terms. One would witness to the other. Hence God is Love is rational to the reasoning of the spiritual mind but irrational to the carnal mind. Consequently I stand by the belief that God is the purest form of wishful thinking partcularly in a cruel world that rationalizes only upon a self servitude to only carnal desires. This does not explain the contradiction of unbelief of the atheist, who holds both knowledge and self sacrificng Love in high esteem in a cruel world, yet does not believe in the purest form of wishful thinking.

What?! You keep changing your concept of god to avoid the disproving of that god constantly.

You keep saying god is love, god is everywhere, god is blah blah blah

Then when it's refuted you add more or subtract more qualities from god. Can you least admit that this god is really a product of your own imagination.

You are merely anthropomorphizing an ideal you have. Which means you are pretending this ideal you hold, about a particular human emotion, is a person that cares about you.

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28-04-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: the God term
(28-04-2013 02:51 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(28-04-2013 02:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Insofar as that goes I would say that love is one of the highest Values we as a species can strive but not exclusively. In that list I would add the pursuit of Knowledge. Without the other neither can really be useful. Love without Knowledge is blind and dangerous Knowledge without love is destructive. This is of course a simplification of a very complex interaction but I hope you can understand what I intend.
Actually I think you said that quite well. You are right, this gets somewhat complicated. Nontheless I submit that Love and knowledge would not contradict one another in the truest sense of the terms. One would witness to the other. Hence God is Love is rational to the reasoning of the spiritual mind but irrational to the carnal mind. Consequently I stand by the belief that God is the purest form of wishful thinking partcularly in a cruel world that rationalizes only upon a self servitude to only carnal desires. This does not explain the contradiction of unbelief of the atheist, who holds both knowledge and self sacrificng Love in high esteem in a cruel world, yet does not believe in the purest form of wishful thinking.

The main reason is because wishful thinking does not make it so. I wish I had unlimited money in my bank account doesn't mean I don't have to balance the checkbook. Basically all we have managed to do is agree on what the best parts of Humanity are.

I would like to point this out, with the exception of this forum I generally don't care what people believe as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try to legislate their morality. I enjoy debating with people and this is a good place to do so but ultimately I don't expect to change your opinion on God. I consider it a good debate when both sides present their case and everyone leaves knowing a little more about the other side.

So with that in mind the reason I do not believe in your god or any others is simple lack of proof. I did search for a long time and never found answers that satisfied so I eventually just had to make my own peace with the universe. I found that once I did that it was like a huge weight was lifted. I look back on history and see it littered with the bodies of dead gods that outlived their usefulness and I see christianity as just another in a long line who's time is nearly over.

But this doesn't make me sad, instead it makes me appreciate the time I was lucky enough to get. Out of all the possible people that could have been I am the one who was and am. I think this is a wonderful time to be alive because as a species we are standing on the very edge of a great future. 100 years ago our species was involved in the bloodiest war yet to be seen and now a century later we are currently exploring another planet. Imagine the things your grandchildren will see before their brief time living among the stars is over. I really believe that we are only a few generations away from real space exploration. Traveling through the universe seeing things never before seen. In my lifetime alone we have fully mapped the Human genome and made information accessible to anyone willing to look for it. I look back at a time when God was the most important thing in the world and it is properly known as the dark age. I do not need a fanciful construct to be hopeful for the future or to appreciate my life.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-04-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: the God term



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28-04-2013, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 06:19 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: the God term
Notwithstanding the bloody tragedies, which Religion often acts, it is insisted, that, without Religion, there can be no Morality. If we judge theological opinions by their effects, we may confidently assert, that all Morality is perfectly incompatible with men's religious opinions.

"Imitate God," exclaim the pious. But, what would be our Morality, should we imitate this God! and what God ought we to imitate? The God of the Deist? But even this God cannot serve us as a very constant model of goodness. If he is the author of all things, he is the author both of good and evil. If he is the author of order, he is also the author of disorder, which could not take place without his permission. If he produces, he destroys; if he gives life, he takes it away; if he grants abundance, riches, prosperity, and peace, he permits or sends scarcity, poverty, calamities, and wars. How then can we receive as a model of permanent beneficence, the God of Deism or natural religion, whose favourable dispositions are every instant contradicted by all the effects we behold? Morality must have a basis less tottering than the example of a God, whose conduct varies, and who cannot be called good, unless we obstinately shut our eyes against the evil which he causes or permits in this world.

Shall we imitate the beneficent, mighty Jupiter of heathen antiquity? To imitate such a god, is to admit as a model, a rebellious son, who ravishes the throne from his father. It is to imitate a debauchee, an adulterer, one guilty of incest and of base passions, at whose conduct every reasonable mortal would blush. What would have been the condition of men under paganism, had they imagined, like Plato, that virtue consisted in imitating the gods!

Must we imitate the God of the Jews! Shall we find in Jehovah a model for our conduct? This is a truly savage god, made for a stupid, cruel, and immoral people; he is always furious, breathes nothing but vengeance, commands carnage, theft, and unsociability. The conduct of this god cannot serve as a model to that of an honest man, and can be imitated only by a chief of robbers.

Shall we then imitate the Jesus of the Christians? Does this God, who died to appease the implacable fury of his father, furnish us an example which men ought to follow? Alas! we shall see in him only a God, or rather a fanatic, a misanthrope, who, himself plunged in wretchedness and preaching to wretches, will advise them to be poor, to combat with and stifle nature, to hate pleasure, seek grief, and detest themselves. He will tell them to leave father, mother, relations, friends, etc., to follow him. "Fine morality!" you say. It is, undoubtedly, admirable: it must be divine, for it is impracticable to men. But is not such sublime morality calculated to render virtue odious? According to the so much boasted morality of the man-God of the Christians, a disciple of his in this world must be like Tantalus, tormented with a burning thirst, which he is not allowed to quench. Does not such morality give us a wonderful idea of the author of nature? If, as we are assured, he has created all things for his creatures, by what strange whim does he forbid them the use of the goods he has created for them? Is pleasure then, which man continually desires, only a snare, which God has maliciously laid to surprise his weakness?

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28-04-2013, 09:06 PM
RE: the God term
Religion gives immorality a place to obfuscate it's intentions in order to pawn them off to the masses as something that should be cherished and revered.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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