the God term
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08-05-2013, 11:42 AM
the God term
(08-05-2013 10:16 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(08-05-2013 09:37 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  How did you come to know this truth?
Why is it, everyone always asks me the questions? I don't mind answering, but I really would like a few of my own answered. After all, I came here to understand the Atheist and all I get is pelted on with claims that my preaching is redundant, and my arguing circular. This thread always seems to get hijacked and derailed by some cynicism wherein I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I'll answer your question. I learned truth. Sometimes through experience, sometimes by observation. Sometimes by lessons, other times by research.

And who was there to critique your interpretations of your observations? How do know your conclusions are valid?

What manner of lessons?

What manner of research?
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08-05-2013, 11:48 AM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2013 11:53 AM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(08-05-2013 10:54 AM)JAH Wrote:  
Quote:I cannot believe that this is still going on. childeye you are suggesting above that someone should consider how they might be viewed by another.
I would kindly ask that you recognize in the record that I have not suggested anything. You are more or less guessing my motives and intents which could be misconstrued.
[quote] Any thinking human tries to do this at times. Any thinking human tries to listen to direct comments made by others so as to understand how their actions or comments are understood by others.
I agree that thinking people would do this wherein some people may not think and not do so. But please notice if you will, that above you have changed my purposeful description of this type of introspection into a matter of external observatiion according to others accounts. That would confound and obscure the clarity of my question.

Quote: To what purpose was your statement.
I have proposed that the moral reasoning of the Atheist mindset must end in hypocrisy since the assertion that God cannot be Love is the core of their rationale.
My purpose is to first see how many Atheists practice an objective examination of one's self. After that I would then like to find out on what basis would they be motivated to change if necessary. Ultimately I wish to see if the atheist recognizes that even atheists have an image they create in their minds which is the best known absolute from where they define and project their morality.

Quote:You want a definition of god. I will give you one. god is a concept used in virtually an infinite number of ways to justify the actions of individuals or groups of humans. The flexibility of the concept of god while it is considered to be all knowing and all powerful and as you like to say is love, is rather proof positive that it is a human construct utilized to allow all sorts of behaviors.

Your individual concept is just that, your concept. Your individual concept (or more properly your construct) may be one of the most benign concepts of god but it is simply that, a concept. A concept used by you to justify your own actions. Other humans concept of god justifies their actions. The idea of god is a useful tool to justify an individuals actions nothing more.

I suspect others have made this case in a more complete and/or articulate manner. I made this post only to avoid suggesting to childeye that they join their god in love.
JAH, this is an excellent description of "god". As in men's constructed images of god used to justify their actions. You do indeed percieve where I am going with my questions. I greatly appreciate your sincere contribution and participation. I only wish I knew if other atheists see the same way as you.

But here it is. You obviously recognize that some people do experience some form of introspection and do construct an image of god. So how are you any different?
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08-05-2013, 12:10 PM
RE: the God term
(08-05-2013 09:50 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(07-05-2013 08:45 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I will repeat this.
A god is NOT a human emotion.
I understand this is your personal view and interpretation. That's fine. I wanted to show you the above scripture to show that people have been believing in God as Love for millenia before you or I were born.

No this is not my personal opinion.
Words have definitions.
Saying god is love or god is the universe or god is a geometric perfect circle is useless and meaningless.

We already have words that mean love. That word is LOVE.
We already have a word that describes the universe. That word is UNIVERSE.
The same for circle.

You can't take the definition for something that we already have and assign it to the word god.

As far as what people believe. They will believe all kinds of bullshit if given the chance.

I can insist that every apple that is brought before is an orange till the day I die, but that doesn't make it true. You are creating a lie for yourself and attempting to spread that lie to as many people as you can. You irritate those around you with the lie and you find joy in that irritation. Maybe you have lied to yourself so much that you now believe the lie.

The old phrase still applies "don't feed the troll for 200+ pages"
And yes, you are a troll.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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08-05-2013, 12:47 PM
RE: the God term
I have no image of god. I do not construct that which I know is a falsehood. I concentrate on facts. god has no factual basis and therefore does not exist in any form other than that imagined by others to provide justification for what are their own acts.

You have constructed your own god. I individually have no need for such a concept. I only use the term because others do.
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08-05-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: the God term
So you've ask if I've ever stepped "outside the atheist box" in order to make an objective examination of myself.

I lived most of my life as a christian (I know, I know, not a True christian), taking a step outside of my christian box and objectively examining my beliefs is exactly what propelled me to an atheistic view.

You speak of Truth, as an absolute that cannot be questioned, yet will admit that we cannot empirically know anything at all. Then you use the word hypocrisy. Then I giggle to myself because that's just silly. Laughat

I know what you mean by your argument, I get what you are saying. I've thought about it throughout my life. What you don't understand is that your "knowledge" of "Truth" simply exists fallaciously in your own mind.

Nobody here exists in an "atheist box". We took the blinders off long ago, it is you who should be taking a different perspective of the universe.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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08-05-2013, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2013 02:17 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(08-05-2013 12:47 PM)JAH Wrote:  I have no image of god. I do not construct that which I know is a falsehood. I concentrate on facts. god has no factual basis and therefore does not exist in any form other than that imagined by others to provide justification for what are their own acts.

You have constructed your own god. I individually have no need for such a concept. I only use the term because others do.
You have me confused. To be clear, do you ever step outside yourself and take an objective view of yourself or in other words do some form of self reflection to see what you look like to others?
Do you consruct a place where you judge your actions from an objective view in order to correct or justify your moral behavior?
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08-05-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: the God term
(08-05-2013 12:10 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(08-05-2013 09:50 AM)childeye Wrote:  I understand this is your personal view and interpretation. That's fine. I wanted to show you the above scripture to show that people have been believing in God as Love for millenia before you or I were born.

No this is not my personal opinion.
Words have definitions.
Saying god is love or god is the universe or god is a geometric perfect circle is useless and meaningless.

We already have words that mean love. That word is LOVE.
We already have a word that describes the universe. That word is UNIVERSE.
The same for circle.

You can't take the definition for something that we already have and assign it to the word god.

As far as what people believe. They will believe all kinds of bullshit if given the chance.

I can insist that every apple that is brought before is an orange till the day I die, but that doesn't make it true. You are creating a lie for yourself and attempting to spread that lie to as many people as you can. You irritate those around you with the lie and you find joy in that irritation. Maybe you have lied to yourself so much that you now believe the lie.

The old phrase still applies "don't feed the troll for 200+ pages"
And yes, you are a troll.
Of course I agree to say an apple is an orange is changing the meaning of a term. Nor is that desireable to do if one wishes to have clear communication. However I have already pointed out that the term God has been used for millenia and described as Love in Christianity. Moreover, having interviewed many Jewish scholars in Judaism, it is also alluded to in Old Testament scripture. Therefore I am not changing the term God to mean anything of my own devise. I am merely understanding that which is commonly referred to as God. I am not a troll as has been proven already on this thread.
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08-05-2013, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2013 03:17 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(08-05-2013 12:59 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  So you've ask if I've ever stepped "outside the atheist box" in order to make an objective examination of myself.
No, that is not quite what I asked. Look again at the question so you can understand and answer accordingly. I asked "as an atheist", do you ever step outside of your self and make an objective examination of your self?

Quote:I lived most of my life as a christian (I know, I know, not a True christian), taking a step outside of my christian box and objectively examining my beliefs is exactly what propelled me to an atheistic view.
I will hold comment on this until a latter time.

Quote:You speak of Truth, as an absolute that cannot be questioned, yet will admit that we cannot empirically know anything at all. Then you use the word hypocrisy. Then I giggle to myself because that's just silly.
I don't know where you get this stuff. I never said that we cannot empirically know anything at all. Even 1+1=2 is at one time an unknown to us in our youth, yet it is an absolute Truth that can be empirically known.

Quote:I know what you mean by your argument, I get what you are saying. I've thought about it throughout my life. What you don't understand is that your "knowledge" of "Truth" simply exists fallaciously in your own mind.
Again a hypocritical process of reasoning must take place for you to say this. Even heathen, I know 1+1=2. You can say I don't know this and it is a fallacious occurence of Truth in my mind. But that does not mean it is not true. You cannot call knowledge non-existenting.

Quote:Nobody here exists in an "atheist box". We took the blinders off long ago, it is you who should be taking a different perspective of the universe.
I think you should first display some understanding to what it is I believe to be True, before concluding my perspective is limited. Also I would think any atheist is in an atheist box if they have concluded that the term god means nothing. Notice how many people here on this thread have called me a troll, even after I showed them that a Christian such as myself believes that only God can bring a person to Christ.
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08-05-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: the God term
childeye, you second reference to stepping outside ones self to observe again without clear meaning.

If you are trying to imply that the idea of god is a mechanism for doing that, I might ask why has the asshole never made a direct comment. god relies on some human, including you, to define itself. That same human then uses the idea of god to observe themselves. Sound to me like the human is doing all the work why some fiction to help that.

This whole thread is like trying to herd cats. I promised before to abandon ship and ended up lying. I will not lie this time I am otta here. Well I may observe on occasion.
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08-05-2013, 02:21 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2013 02:47 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(08-05-2013 11:42 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(08-05-2013 10:16 AM)childeye Wrote:  Why is it, everyone always asks me the questions? I don't mind answering, but I really would like a few of my own answered. After all, I came here to understand the Atheist and all I get is pelted on with claims that my preaching is redundant, and my arguing circular. This thread always seems to get hijacked and derailed by some cynicism wherein I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I'll answer your question. I learned truth. Sometimes through experience, sometimes by observation. Sometimes by lessons, other times by research.

And who was there to critique your interpretations of your observations? How do know your conclusions are valid?

What manner of lessons?

What manner of research?
Are you talking about before knowing Christ or after? Are you talking about moral Truth, spiritual interpretation? Carnal knowledge? Or knowledge as a whole?
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