the God term
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10-05-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: the God term
(09-05-2013 08:27 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
Quote:Your perspective of the Truth and mine are unique and differing subjective views. The Truth itself is not subjective. Whether I change your mind or not is irrelative. I believe or at least hope everyone will come to know the Truth eventually.

[quote]I misspoke, you are technically correct. There are facts out there that, by definition, are the truth, and they are not subjective.
Thank you for this Evenheathen. I really needed to see this. I thought I was going to have to prepare a whole different line of thought to communicate with you and other Atheists.
Quote: However I still see no reason to conclude that your knowledge claims constitute the truth.
In response to this I would say that all I have expected you to see was that there is a moral Truth and it is Love.

Quote: It requires some faith and humility to get this.

Quote:Read it, got it. Didn't seem to require any faith.
You know, I would like to know what atheists believe faith means. I'm glad you got it. Would it make bother you if I tested whether you got it?

Quote: All binary terms reverse meanings depending upon whether you serve the flesh or the spirit. Therefore, what is "success" to the carnal mind, such as riches and fame, are "failure" to the spiritual mind. One guy thinks it's "better" to hand the shit end of the stick to the other guy, the other thinks it's "better" not to. Are you following me here?
Quote: I hope this all helps you see how I define all binary terms in their true meanings, as opposed to their false meanings all dependent upon which direction they are heading relative to the Truth.

Quote:This is actually an interesting way of making an argument. As long as you stay consistent with this baloney, it doesn't matter what rational argument we can give you, if it doesn't align with believing in god then you can claim it is in ignorance, vanity and hypocrisy.
It is impossible to overcome the validity of it without outright being dishonest to yourself. You can call it baloney all you want till you're blue in the face. But this so called baloney kicked my ass into facing the facts and turned my life around. Through this reasoning that The Holy Spirit used on me, I was forced into a place where I had no choice but to admit and capitulate to the sobering fact that I didn't like eating turds.

Quote: Meanwhile the man who heads towards Truth and out of ignorance is humble, honest and more altruistic in his love and regard for others.
Quote:I found it very interesting to note that from the very moment I finally let go of any reason to hold a vision of god necessary my worldview began to change. I found the realization that we are alone on this planet, and very mortal with no promised afterlife very humbling. My view of my fellow human beings changed.

I've always considered myself a pretty nice guy, and I'm pretty sure my friends do to. But my sense of compassion and empathy for others, especially others that I did not even know, grew significantly. I felt compelled to give of myself more than I ever had as a christian.

I'm not sure how you'd interpret my stepping "away from the light" and into darkness as a catalyst for what you'd call love.
This is a common effect of dumping religion and false worship. The throwing away of idols is the being set free of having to prove yourself, and Love can just be as it was meant to be. In other words I don't interpret what you say as stepping away from the Light, but into the Light. If you recall the point of my post was that the described semantics are relative to the Truth and not the Truth relative to the semantics. This is why I have consistently pointed out that you all conflate religion with God and we therefore cannot communicate properly because of the different meanings of the term "God". Hence you imply above that you have no vision of god because that is how you perceive the term. But to me, you actually do have a vision of God and the proof is in your own words, because you above say you are compelled to Love which as I said, is God.

Quote:But you are at least getting somewhere with the conversation.
Thanks. We are getting somewhere I hope. You are helping a lot, so don't count yourself out.
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10-05-2013, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 08:09 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: the God term
(09-05-2013 08:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 08:39 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Interesting, the same thing happened to me. Could this greater compassion and empathy come from knowing that there is no referee out there after the game is over to make thing "right"?

In Spanish there is a common response when an act of generosity is given to you and you can't or won't reply in kind, the phrase is "que Dios te lo page", which means "may God repay you". If you walk around thinking that the scales will be balanced in an afterlife your actions here lose much of their urgency and meaning, that's my take. God will make it right, right?

This is what christianity was designed to do. In it's inception under Saul of Tarsus the baseline of the cult was the fact that slights in this world didn't matter cause everything would be better in the afterlife. It makes the sheep easy to herd when they are promised that in the hereafter all the wrongs will be righted the poor shall be rich and the meek shall be strong. Give your money and control to the leaders of the congregation (this of course being before the invention of the church) and all will be well after you depart this mortal coil. Don't question the rules or you won't get in to Heaven and will forfeit your rewards. Don't think just believe and all will be well. Close your eyes and ears to the world for this is not the life you need be concerned with.

That was the most evil thing Saul did, among a very long list of evil deeds. To think that if the basis for the new Roman official religion had been based off of the Gnostics instead of Paulianity none of that drivel would have been in the bible. Think of all the evil that has been produced by that idea. All of the wars, the deaths the ignorance caused by this idea that thinking is wrong and blind obedience is the only path to happiness.

I absolutely agree as it pertains to the standard model of Christianity, however I don't think this is where he is going. My post was dealing simply with the notion of empathy.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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10-05-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 09:18 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 08:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is what christianity was designed to do. In it's inception under Saul of Tarsus the baseline of the cult was the fact that slights in this world didn't matter cause everything would be better in the afterlife. It makes the sheep easy to herd when they are promised that in the hereafter all the wrongs will be righted the poor shall be rich and the meek shall be strong. Give your money and control to the leaders of the congregation (this of course being before the invention of the church) and all will be well after you depart this mortal coil. Don't question the rules or you won't get in to Heaven and will forfeit your rewards. Don't think just believe and all will be well. Close your eyes and ears to the world for this is not the life you need be concerned with.

That was the most evil thing Saul did, among a very long list of evil deeds. To think that if the basis for the new Roman official religion had been based off of the Gnostics instead of Paulianity none of that drivel would have been in the bible. Think of all the evil that has been produced by that idea. All of the wars, the deaths the ignorance caused by this idea that thinking is wrong and blind obedience is the only path to happiness.

I absolutely agree as it proertains to the standard model of Christianity, however I don't think this is where he is going. My post was dealing simply with the notion of empathy.

I don't really care where he is going cause we've been there several dozen times already. However most cults follow this practice, the more control you give to the cult the happier you will be if you not happy give more control and if that doesn't work pray harder cause you just don't believe enough. Empathy is a tool used by religion to sucker you in "Jesus died for your sins" you owe us our guy did you a huge favor. That is the hook, Heaven is the bait, hell is the threat and guilt is the whip that keeps you moving to their tune. When you remove all that added machinery it allows you to be empathetic without the guilt thus you are more likely to be empathetic more.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-05-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: the God term
Quote: Would it make bother you if I tested whether you got it?

If you feel you must.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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10-05-2013, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 12:15 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 08:10 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 01:43 PM)childeye Wrote:  I never came to know Christ because I understood the bible or searched the bible. The bible helped confirm my experience and increase my convictions.

However, I can appreciate your sentiments and they are honest, fair and forthright. Therefore what I would say to you, is that I am not very acquainted with the Koran or Quran, so I wouldn't comment on the differences between the bible and the Koran. Also it should be noted that if God exists as God, he exists apart from the bible or any inspired writings about Him. The bible is not a way to God. It is testimony about Him.

If God is the Ceator, then His fingerprints are in the creation itself including ourselves. I would say that the best evidence that the bible contains testimony of real experiences with the real God are the words of the Christ. I believe that inside each person is the ability to know right from wrong which is seen in the moral context of how we treat our fellow man. This ability is what I see as one aspect of the fingerprints of our Creator. Here you must consider what I am going to say. The scriptures talk about the Word of God. The Word of God that the scriptures are refering to, is an attribute of God, the ability to know right from wrong.

Jesus is that Word come in the flesh according to scripture. So, the way I know Jesus is speaking the Truth is that all his words agree with that Word of God in my own heart.

While I do appreciate your taking the time to try to answer my queries, I do not feel you answered my question in a manner without predisposition.

Your wording implies that you start off with the conclusion that Jesus is/was a god and that the bible is correct, an assumption I requested be avoided by any whom attempted to answer me, this implication is evidenced by your final sentences, which seem to say "Jesus acted like he did in his book." & "I know Jesus is correct because he acted like he did in his book" which of course is a pointless statement, considering he only shows up half way through God's book, coming after what can only be described as a blood thirsty monster who revels in the mass graves of its commanded and caused victims. And to my understanding, Jesus is only a minor character improvement.

As I find your answer, while apparently sincere, inadequate, I will ask again:

How can a person be sure that their interpretation of their sect of their holy book is the correct one?

Or rather: How could a totally thus far unconvinced sceptic such as myself, be sure what interpretation of what sect of what holy book is the right one to follow? Given the immense numbers of sects, interpretations and the holy books/teachings and the low collective probability of any of them being correct.

I would again request that the respondent be unbiased and not answer with their own pre-suppositions, this request naturally extends to all takers.
I'll try again, this time with your rephrase in mind. I would answer that if you as a skeptic are looking to find the correct sect or interpretation to any holy book so as to follow a sect, you are working with a false premise of reasoning to begin with and should trust in your skepticism. Because God isn't a book nor therefore any interpretation of a book. There are no sects in those who share in a sincere Love. That is why I told you this:
Also it should be noted that if God exists as God, he exists apart from the bible or any inspired writings about Him.
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10-05-2013, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 11:48 AM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 05:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  Time to just stop posting in this thread. It became pointless quite some time ago.Drinking Beverage
Too bad Chas. I don't feel we really had any constructive back and forth. It is clear to me that you are a bright individual who loves knowledge. I will say that I enjoyed some of your signature statements such as this one: "There is a circle here that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness; and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others. We discover that we can be selfish together."
-Sam Harris
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10-05-2013, 11:36 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 12:00 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 10:19 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
Quote: Would it bother you if I tested whether you got it?

If you feel you must.
Actually I don't feel I must. I'm just uncertain, that's all.
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10-05-2013, 11:57 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 12:05 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 09:18 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 08:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is what christianity was designed to do. In it's inception under Saul of Tarsus the baseline of the cult was the fact that slights in this world didn't matter cause everything would be better in the afterlife. It makes the sheep easy to herd when they are promised that in the hereafter all the wrongs will be righted the poor shall be rich and the meek shall be strong. Give your money and control to the leaders of the congregation (this of course being before the invention of the church) and all will be well after you depart this mortal coil. Don't question the rules or you won't get in to Heaven and will forfeit your rewards. Don't think just believe and all will be well. Close your eyes and ears to the world for this is not the life you need be concerned with.

That was the most evil thing Saul did, among a very long list of evil deeds. To think that if the basis for the new Roman official religion had been based off of the Gnostics instead of Paulianity none of that drivel would have been in the bible. Think of all the evil that has been produced by that idea. All of the wars, the deaths the ignorance caused by this idea that thinking is wrong and blind obedience is the only path to happiness.

I absolutely agree as it proertains to the standard model of Christianity, however I don't think this is where he is going. My post was dealing simply with the notion of empathy.
I want to confirm your correct interpretation if this is pertaining to my post 2136. I was talking about empathy as Truth and not about religion.
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10-05-2013, 12:13 PM
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 11:57 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 09:18 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  I absolutely agree as it proertains to the standard model of Christianity, however I don't think this is where he is going. My post was dealing simply with the notion of empathy.
I want to confirm your correct interpretation if this is pertaining to my post 2136. I was talking about empathy as Truth and not about religion.

Sure, but I was talking about empathy as just empathy, since that's all it is.
Quote: Actually I don't feel I must. I'm just uncertain, that's all.

I'm listening. You're the one out to prove something, prove it.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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10-05-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: the God term
(10-05-2013 12:13 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  [quote='childeye' pid='306367' dateline='1368208653']
I want to confirm your correct interpretation if this is pertaining to my post 2136. I was talking about empathy as Truth and not about religion.

Quote:Sure, but I was talking about empathy as just empathy, since that's all it is.
So was I.
Quote: Actually I don't feel I must. I'm just uncertain, that's all.

Quote:I'm listening. You're the one out to prove something, prove it.
Actually, if you really do understand what I said then you would know I already have proved it.
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