the God term
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13-05-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: the God term
(13-05-2013 12:19 PM)childeye Wrote:  Actually I wouldn't know exactly what to expect from an afterlife, but I'm sure it's better than our current social quagmire.

So you have some idea ? Pray tell. And you're sure it's better because ?
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13-05-2013, 02:01 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 03:05 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(12-05-2013 10:25 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
Quote: I cannot deny that the Christ is the highest form of Love I could have never imagined. I cannot deny that Love is greater than life. I cannot deny that Love lives in all men in some degree. I can't deny that Love is the moral absolute. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.

I believe I diagnosed your view a long time ago. Research Anselm's ontological argument for god. Really, this is what you are doing. Look up why it is a logical fallacy.

We're here to help. Ask questions if confused, but look it up. Then get back to us.
I've looked at Anselms ontological argument. It does not mention Love as the moral Truth in mankind. It does not mention The New Testament being foretold and coming to pass. He speaks of the term god as how I speak of introspection. We all construct an image of "god" as we contemplate an improved self when evaluating our interaction with others. I would agree he is correct about one thing that would suggest proof of God. That is this, "perfection is prior to imperfection, actuality to potency, and existence to non-existence".

This to me is no different than Moral Truth existed before lies. Trust existed before distrust. Consequently, morality cannot be completely relative without losing the very base meanings of right and wrong, trust distrust etc... One could then upon such uninhibited reasoning essentially justify any behavior and pervert what is Love.

Therefore, I am convinced that only God can reveal Himself, since anyone who has no such moral boundries can even hold any viable concept of god or mercy or justice. Hence I have spoken of what God showed me. That anything contradictory in anyone's ethical reasoning is dishonesty to one's self. In other words, there is an absolute Moral Truth to which we can only serve in our honesty by not being hypocritical. And how does this happen? Because Love exists in all purity for that is what such reasoning serves. Dishonesty cannot enter and know or experience such purity. And therein lies perfection.

I believe I have already established this as a fact over and over.
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13-05-2013, 02:33 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 02:58 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(13-05-2013 01:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 12:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  I sense more the negative in your use of the term obey. Respectfully the bible is not a moral compass so to speak. The bible itself can be used immorally as we well know. However the bible is not only about obey in both negative and positive aspects. It is really about faith. Looking deeper we see that Politics are inevitable. Who is in charge and worthy of trust is the only issue.

Exactly and the scriptures do not differentiate between good and evil rules or acts by god. Now I think you know this (by what all you've written) but you're not yet willing to completely disavow the Bible. I am assuming you are referring to the catholic version with the added texts. I came from a Southern Baptist background so I tend to reference the King James Bible But this brings me to yet another point Which version of holy writ is holy writ? Do the Arabic Infancy gospels count? Or the Gospel of Judas? Or are we just going to go with those books canonised under Constantine? How do we discount the Gnostic writings while still viewing the dead sea scrolls as having importance?
I appreciate your sensible discourse. A worthy contrbution to the discussion. In response I would point out that scripture itself says scripture is nothing but a sacrament. Indeed your insightful analysis of my personal need for reassurance that there is something good in the life experience, is in itself as viable a testimony as to the true meaning of faith defined as true by scripture. That is the issue when contemplating the existence of god as good or evil. In my experience it is a personal struggle between which way we are going to believe concerning the Character of God that will define our own character and motivate our wills accordingly. Therefore it does not really matter what scripture or interpretation I count as accurate, only the simple foundational truth upon which I will build all other reasoning in my lifetime is what matters. Is the God I perceive trustworthy or untrustworthy? For this is self fullfilling prophecy. If god is counted untrustworthy, then it natural follows in reasoning that I will hope He does not exist.

Scripture itself seems written to be taken two different ways. The Gospel is like the Truth being dropped into the world and men judged themselves according to what they proclaimed they saw. Not for the purpose of establishing each man's degree of righteousness. But to establish that it is God Himself Who makes a man righteous. Hence Jesus did not come to call the righteous but the sinners. He says what is most ironic, blessed are those who hunger for righteousness, many of the last will be first. As if God has chosen those who know they are without so that no man may boast. This is the only plan I can imagine that would destroy all vanity forever.
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13-05-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: the God term
(13-05-2013 02:00 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 12:19 PM)childeye Wrote:  Actually I wouldn't know exactly what to expect from an afterlife, but I'm sure it's better than our current social quagmire.

So you have some idea ? Pray tell. And you're sure it's better because ?
Because vanity will have been eliminated.
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13-05-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: the God term
(13-05-2013 02:33 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 01:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Exactly and the scriptures do not differentiate between good and evil rules or acts by god. Now I think you know this (by what all you've written) but you're not yet willing to completely disavow the Bible. I am assuming you are referring to the catholic version with the added texts. I came from a Southern Baptist background so I tend to reference the King James Bible But this brings me to yet another point Which version of holy writ is holy writ? Do the Arabic Infancy gospels count? Or the Gospel of Judas? Or are we just going to go with those books canonised under Constantine? How do we discount the Gnostic writings while still viewing the dead sea scrolls as having importance?
I appreciate your sensible discourse. A worthy contrbution to the discussion. In response I would point out that scripture itself says scripture is nothing but a sacrament. Indeed your insightful analysis of my personal need for reassurance that there is something good in the life experience, is in itself as viable a testimony as to the true meaning of faith defined as true by scripture. That is the issue when contemplating the existence of god as good or evil. In my experience it is a personal struggle between which way we are going to believe concerning the Character of God that will define our own character and motivate our wills accordingly. Therefore it does not really matter what scripture or interpretation I count as accurate, only the simple foundational truth upon which I will build all other reasoning in my lifetime is what matters. Is the God I perceive trustworthy or untrustworthy?

Scripture itself seems written to be taken two different ways. The Gospel is like the Truth being dropped into the world and men judged themselves according to what they proclaimed they saw. Not for the purpose of establishing each man's degree of righteousness. But to establish that it is God Himself Who makes a man righteous. Hence Jesus did not come to call the righteous but the sinners. He says what is most ironic, blessed are those who hunger for righteousness. As if God has chosen those who know they are without so that no man may boast. This is the only plan I can imagine that would destroy all vanity forever.

I need you to fully define a term you use. Vanity. Just want to be sure we are on the same page.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-05-2013, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 03:29 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: the God term
(13-05-2013 11:31 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 10:19 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Well I've met uncountable amounts of christians like you.

Who will refuse, twist, and contort everything to fit into what they think god is.
As I've said many times already, what you say is not even possible. Your lack of knowledge concerning Christianity is painfully obvious. You are arguing a straw man of your own construction. God brings a person to Christ. God reveals Himself.
Quote:To those who are like you all I have to say is that I hope you get everything you believe in.

I could think of no greater torture than eternal life. If you want that, I hope you get that.
I appreciate the sentiment fstratzero. I would like to say, that if eternal life was like this world, full of misery, where we try to protect whatever is left that is pure, then I would not want to live either.

That's hard to put a date on.

I rejected it all after several complete failures of scriptures, contradictory ideas, and all the contradictions of god's own nature. Biblical history revealed that the bible was written by men.

Not to mention my gothic phase where I wrote 666 and pentagrams everywhere and nothing happened. God and Satan both failed to exist.

And every question I asked about the world was answered by science and psychology rather than the bible.

Most of the arguments I put forward to you were problems with god I had to answer myself.

No amount of spin, could fix god. God as an idea was so flawed it failed to even be coherent.

For the most part I became an atheist in highschool and went back and forth on that subject for awhile afterwards. Before I came to finally reject it all.

The thing that really cemented atheism and skepticism for me was watching my grandpa's die. One was very religious the other was very new age. No supernatural, or change of philosophy, or new age belief manifested. They both became cold stiff and very dead.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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13-05-2013, 03:44 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 04:38 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(13-05-2013 02:50 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 02:33 PM)childeye Wrote:  I appreciate your sensible discourse. A worthy contrbution to the discussion. In response I would point out that scripture itself says scripture is nothing but a sacrament. Indeed your insightful analysis of my personal need for reassurance that there is something good in the life experience, is in itself as viable a testimony as to the true meaning of faith defined as true by scripture. That is the issue when contemplating the existence of god as good or evil. In my experience it is a personal struggle between which way we are going to believe concerning the Character of God that will define our own character and motivate our wills accordingly. Therefore it does not really matter what scripture or interpretation I count as accurate, only the simple foundational truth upon which I will build all other reasoning in my lifetime is what matters. Is the God I perceive trustworthy or untrustworthy?

Scripture itself seems written to be taken two different ways. The Gospel is like the Truth being dropped into the world and men judged themselves according to what they proclaimed they saw. Not for the purpose of establishing each man's degree of righteousness. But to establish that it is God Himself Who makes a man righteous. Hence Jesus did not come to call the righteous but the sinners. He says what is most ironic, blessed are those who hunger for righteousness. As if God has chosen those who know they are without so that no man may boast. This is the only plan I can imagine that would destroy all vanity forever.

I need you to fully define a term you use. Vanity. Just want to be sure we are on the same page.
A difficult term to understand and articulate since in it's base form it is too broad to comprehend accurately. Only as it branches and manifests itself in various forms do we see more clearly.

In the base form vanity is the usurping of that which is God given or God made. Please try to understand that whatever God does is forever, and whatever has been usurped from what He has done is futile. This could be applied as adding something to a painting prepared by God that didn't need adding to, or taking away from a sculpture that God had created perfect and didn't need being taken away from. In that sense, one must first think he or she is better or knows more than God so as to try and improve upon His handiwork. For vanity to exist therefore, one must have no proper esteem of any thing Higher than one's self.

Vanity is taking God given talents, wisdom, knowledge, beauty, power, etc...and becoming enamored with one's self as if one had earned them. It can be seen in the despising of those who appear lesser in beauty and in the praise of those who appear to have beauty over the one's with less. In vanity comes the blindness that begets iniquity, envy, pride,greed, hypocrisy, dishonesty, self-righteousness, lack of pity, lack of mercy, lack of empathy etc... But vanity itself is essentially the taking for granted that which is God. Vanity is therefore the source of all corruption.
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13-05-2013, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 04:32 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
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13-05-2013, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 05:04 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: the God term

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
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13-05-2013, 04:52 PM
RE: the God term



Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
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