the God term
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16-04-2013, 12:49 PM
RE: the God term
(16-04-2013 12:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 12:36 PM)mitchelljames87 Wrote:  Apologies, but may I also add a note as to the notion of 'God as a source of morality'.

An atheist would not disagree that religion is a source of morality, because it's clear that the Bible, Qur’an, Torah, etc., give guidance as to a 'construct of moral belief'.

The issues we would have regarding religious scripture as a source of morality is that it often comes part-and-parcel with religious belief, to which we do not prescribe.

An atheist (or perhaps more appropriately, a humanist) finds morality in social constructs (friends, family, personal & social experiences) or through reading ethical theory and philosophy, such as 'The Good Life' set out by Aristotle in the Nicomachean Ethics, of which has no religious connotations.

It's not necessarily that atheists believe that religious morality is invalid; rather, that we cannot associate ourselves with anything religious.

Yet, as Alain de Botton points out quite excellently in his latest book, perhaps an athiests morality could be informed by religious morality, i.e., do not kill, treat others as you would be treated, yet without the subsequent belief in God.

I would counter your argument with Christopher Hitchens "Morality exists not because of religion but in spite of it". Religion tends to give passes to immoral actions if such actions were undertaken for the furthering of the religion or the supposed will of the deity that is being worshiped. See the genocide in canaan as proscribed in the bible as a prime example. Thou shalt not kill unless the victem doesn't believe in the same sky fairy as you then it's ok.

I couldn't disagree that the bible has immoral actions and implications therein. Nor would I want to. Good point.

I would however motion you to consider that the moral belief 'Do not kill', distilled from the dirtied pool, is a positive moral rule. I merely suggest that, In a secular society, we may lend some religious morality to our own.

find the diamond in the rough, if you like.

'The four most over-rated things in the world are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics.' - Christopher Hitchins
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16-04-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: the God term
I think I've spotted a bogey. Big Grin

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16-04-2013, 01:07 PM
RE: the God term
(16-04-2013 12:49 PM)mitchelljames87 Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 12:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I would counter your argument with Christopher Hitchens "Morality exists not because of religion but in spite of it". Religion tends to give passes to immoral actions if such actions were undertaken for the furthering of the religion or the supposed will of the deity that is being worshiped. See the genocide in canaan as proscribed in the bible as a prime example. Thou shalt not kill unless the victem doesn't believe in the same sky fairy as you then it's ok.

I couldn't disagree that the bible has immoral actions and implications therein. Nor would I want to. Good point.

I would however motion you to consider that the moral belief 'Do not kill', distilled from the dirtied pool, is a positive moral rule. I merely suggest that, In a secular society, we may lend some religious morality to our own.

find the diamond in the rough, if you like.

It still seems as though you are putting the cart before the horse. Morality is not from religion, it is from secular society. The golden rule has been around since before man was Man. Homo Sapiens were not the first hominid to live in a group setting and such a group requires a communal morality.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-04-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: the God term
(16-04-2013 12:00 PM)childeye Wrote:  See, this is what I am talking about. You say things about the bible and the God therein, which you clearly know nothing about.

In the Spirit of Christ there is no condemnation.

childeye, I'm seriously done messing with you about the god dog thing. So, you can stop ignoring me.

What I want to address is your language... specifically, the bolded part.

Who are you talking about that have no condemnation? Christians? Unbelievers?

Also, you are very wrong... there is condemnation by God. God does condemn... and it doesn't matter who you are or what you do... God condemns who He wants to.

Read Romans 9 for the most blatant example in the Bible.

Condemnation is no ones fault but God's. No one can choose condemnation or salvation; according to the Bible, God chooses this and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

If you don't agree, please prove me wrong with scripture.

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16-04-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 02:29 PM)childeye Wrote:  I respectively would rather spend time addressing the topic of the thread or at least address matters that can be established with some factual value.


What is your god's factual value?

Pi (in the sky)?


This is more like Poe in the sky.



(15-04-2013 02:06 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 01:59 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So, there was no empathy before monotheism Drinking Beverage wow...
Well herein lies the problem. If God is empathy as I claim, empathy could not come before monotheism nor visa versa. You are presenting what I would call a false dichotomy.

(15-04-2013 03:24 PM)childeye Wrote:  Respectfully, I don't know what you mean by supernatural. It seems to me that empathy is a very natural occurance. [sic]
...

There you have it folks!

Would not that false dichotomy indicate that the claim is... false.




(15-04-2013 06:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I DLJ called Poe first!


Fixt

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16-04-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: the God term
That you did, DLJ... that you did.

Although, in his intro, I had my suspicions. I guess I just need to speak my mind sooner.

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16-04-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: the God term
Quote:It still seems as though you are putting the cart before the horse. Morality is not from religion, it is from secular society. The golden rule has been around since before man was Man. Homo Sapiens were not the first hominid to live in a group setting and such a group requires a communal morality.

I like that analogy. Yet I wouldn't say that religion is the source of morality, rather that it does have positive moral implication? i.e., religion doesn't create morality, but it does contain positive moral messages, albeit amongst immoral actions/deeds?

I would agree however that morality comes before religion, chronologically speaking.

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16-04-2013, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2013 01:34 PM by morondog.)
RE: the God term
(16-04-2013 01:25 PM)mitchelljames87 Wrote:  I like that analogy. Yet I wouldn't say that religion is the source of morality, rather that it does have positive moral implication? i.e., religion doesn't create morality, but it does contain positive moral messages, albeit amongst immoral actions/deeds?

I would agree however that morality comes before religion, chronologically speaking.

My ass contains positive moral messages. I just ate a bible.

Those moral messages are hardly that difficult to come up with that we need a deity to give them to us. "Thou shalt not kill" "Aw jeez God, wtf ? Next we'll have to not have sex with other men".

edit: ^^ just realised that the comparison above might be taken to imply that gay sex was immoral. Totally not zee intention. Intention was to highlight that positive, obvious morals mixed with negative crap and dogma is still extremely bad.
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16-04-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: the God term
(16-04-2013 11:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 11:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Debatable.

I still contend that the Bonobos took the most intelligent evolutionary path.

Yes

They are arguably happier. Even more ethical.

But dey gotz no interwebz. Checkmate, expatriate!

Sad humans haz interwebz porn
Happy Bonobos are too busy fucking.

Big Grin

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16-04-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: the God term
(16-04-2013 12:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  The largest three religions are misogynistic, xenophobic, and violent. Their moralities are anti-human, shame-based, and disgusting.

Fuck religious morality.

Did you mean largest three monotheistic religions?

Hinduism is the third largest religion and I would not describe it as above.

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