the God term
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-04-2013, 10:20 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 09:48 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 09:41 PM)childeye Wrote:  Okay, I tried to find the show I had seen on tv. I did find several websites debunking the show. I have to admit, the debunkers were convincing. However, I continued searching for evidence and I found this one website quite compelling. Google this: Archeology & Exodus from Egypt - Ohr Somayach. Near the bottom of the page is a link to information about a certain payprus found in Egypt. Click on it.

Watch it. Sounds like you're starting to think and shit and look for evidence. Only reason can stem that. Dangerous ground to tread for a believer.
Please, I never tried to prove exodus before. I met Christ through a different way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2013, 10:29 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 10:20 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 10:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  evidence of exodus

Well thanks for the link. Here is a bit on the wiki page for this document.

Parallels with the Book of Exodus

Some have interpreted the document as an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible, and it is often cited as proof for the Biblical account by various religious organisations.[24]
The association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with the Exodus as describing the same event is generally rejected by Egyptologists.[25] Roland Enmarch, author of a new translation of the papyrus, notes: "The broadest modern reception of Ipuwer amongst non-Egyptological readers has probably been as a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus."[26] While Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts of the Ipuwer Papyrus and The Book of Exodus on grounds of historicity, in The reception of a Middle Egyptian poem: The Dialogue of Ipuwer.. he acknowledges that there are some textual parallels "particularly the striking statement that ‘the river is blood and one drinks from it’ (Ipuwer 2.10), and the frequent references to servants abandoning their subordinate status (e.g. Ipuwer 3.14–4.1; 6.7–8; 10.2–3). On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account."[27] Commenting on such attempts to draw parallels, he writes that "all these approaches read Ipuwer hyper-literally and selectively" and points out that there are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the Biblical account, such as Ipuwer's lamentation of an Asiatic (Semitic) invasion rather than a mass departure.[26] He suggests that "it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments," but other Egyptologists disagree (see Genre section above). Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth, mentioning that Kitchen has also discussed this phenomenon.

Full wiki page is here. So basically the only way this is "proof" of Exodus is if you cherry pick the document and then reverse at least 1 major theme so on scholastic merit no it does not prove your case.

Also of note did a quick check of the source you used and it is equivalent of liberty university for orthodox judaism. It does explain why it is the only source you found in favor of an exodus link to that document.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2013, 10:35 PM
RE: the God term
Can somebody please hijack this thread or something? Its making me dizzy...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like WeAreTheCosmos's post
17-04-2013, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2013 10:51 PM by childeye.)
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 10:20 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 10:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  evidence of exodus

Well thanks for the link. Here is a bit on the wiki page for this document.

Parallels with the Book of Exodus

Some have interpreted the document as an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible, and it is often cited as proof for the Biblical account by various religious organisations.[24]
The association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with the Exodus as describing the same event is generally rejected by Egyptologists.[25] Roland Enmarch, author of a new translation of the papyrus, notes: "The broadest modern reception of Ipuwer amongst non-Egyptological readers has probably been as a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus."[26] While Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts of the Ipuwer Papyrus and The Book of Exodus on grounds of historicity, in The reception of a Middle Egyptian poem: The Dialogue of Ipuwer.. he acknowledges that there are some textual parallels "particularly the striking statement that ‘the river is blood and one drinks from it’ (Ipuwer 2.10), and the frequent references to servants abandoning their subordinate status (e.g. Ipuwer 3.14–4.1; 6.7–8; 10.2–3). On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account."[27] Commenting on such attempts to draw parallels, he writes that "all these approaches read Ipuwer hyper-literally and selectively" and points out that there are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the Biblical account, such as Ipuwer's lamentation of an Asiatic (Semitic) invasion rather than a mass departure.[26] He suggests that "it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments," but other Egyptologists disagree (see Genre section above). Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth, mentioning that Kitchen has also discussed this phenomenon.

Full wiki page is here. So basically the only way this is "proof" of Exodus is if you cherry pick the document and then reverse at least 1 major theme so on scholastic merit no it does not prove your case.
I've already read this in my search. What you have posted here does not say anything conclusive either way. Some say this, others disagree and so on. Scholars debate the translation and others the interpretation. From what I see it is compelling evidence. There is much more I have found which I am loathe to go back and hyperlink all of it.

It's enough for me to hear the Gospel to believe in the Christ. The Gospel is simple. Do I believe in self sacrificing Love like I see on the cross? Is this to me, the True Image of God as opposed to a false image invented by man? Everyone must answer that question for themselves. Which is why the atheist is in a predicament since he/she considers it taboo to even consider the term God in such a manner. The atheist knows there are many images of god and they are all inventions of men. The moral spirit of the individual reflect the image of god they hold to be true. Look at Islam, they are about laws and Koran and their way of life reflects their belief. The Gospel is about an Image sent by God Himself and not invented. What we say about the Image He sends says more about us then it does about Him. For if we say yes, God is like this man Jesus, the spirit of Christ will live and grow in us. But if we say there is no God, then that is the spirit that will govern our thinking. The atheist mind must conclude that there is nor reason for life. The Christ is about living forever because Love is Eternal...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2013, 10:52 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 10:16 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 10:05 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  When my children were small, they wanted Christmas every day. I explained to them if it was celebrated daily it wouldn't have any meaning, it would just be another day. Sure we'd have a tree, decorations...but all that would become normal...

It wouldn't have any meaning or value. Santa wouldn't matter...none of it would.

When you talk about loving me or anyone else you don't know..you reduce everyone in your life to ordinary and none of them truly matter to you. Love hasn't any real meaning for you and that does make me sad.
Love is not like Santa. It's every moment of everyday for me. It is infinitely bigger than myself. Though this is impossible to prove, I ascertain it by faith. Here are the choices in my moral reasoning, they are two opposite directions on a straight line away or towards God. I either sacrifice myself to save others or sacrifice others to save myself. We all will make this choice somewhere in our lives.

Your logic is flawed and your reasoning circular. I must disingage from this discussion. We haven't anything further to discuss.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2013, 10:52 PM
the God term
(17-04-2013 09:27 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 07:30 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Very well then, Childeye. I'd very much like to know your thoughts on this now. The thread has grown a bit since you started it. Do you feel prepared to tell us what you have learned about atheism and atheists? Do you feel your horizons have been broadened?
Hi Cardinal smurf. So far, I've spent three full days on this site evey moment I can spare. I have enjoyed the back and forth immensely. I have spoken my heart and soul and have learned I'm a Poe, whatever that is. I've been accused of trolling, whatever that is. I'm dishonest, full of shit, likened to a fly, of dubious motives, I feign ignorance for the purpose of guile, I'm deluded, I'm living in a fantasy, I don't know what God means, eternal means, empathy means, pi means, I don't know history, mathematics, have a problem with the English language, make up my own definitions, use wordplay, have a cognizant disorder, I love taint tickle time feely goody, am selling a theory nobody wants and I'm either too dumb or a know it all depending on who I talk to. So yeah, my horizons have been broadened greatly. Thanks for asking.

Your response is unexpected. I thought you said you came to learn about atheists, namely us and our varying beliefs or unbeliefs. Your response here is filled with your perceptions of our observations of you, some of which, I'm almost certain, were in jest.

So, I'll ask again. What have you learned of us thus far? Who do you perceive us to be? What are our beliefs? If you truly came to understand us, we must assess your understanding so far so that we may correct as necessary.

Going solely by the response above I can only presume your presence here is merely for self entertainment. Is it?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cardinal Smurf's post
17-04-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 10:35 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Can somebody please hijack this thread or something? Its making me dizzy...
I'm dizzy too. I think I'll go to bed.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 09:01 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 07:43 PM)DLJ Wrote:  The evidence demonstrates otherwise.

Atheism is the 'output' of reason not the 'input' to it.

Bowing
There is no reason for life according to an atheist, so there can be no reason for reason.

Reason (verb) is a process.

It does need a reason (noun).

Smartass

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like DLJ's post
17-04-2013, 11:22 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 10:52 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 09:27 PM)childeye Wrote:  Hi Cardinal smurf. So far, I've spent three full days on this site evey moment I can spare. I have enjoyed the back and forth immensely. I have spoken my heart and soul and have learned I'm a Poe, whatever that is. I've been accused of trolling, whatever that is. I'm dishonest, full of shit, likened to a fly, of dubious motives, I feign ignorance for the purpose of guile, I'm deluded, I'm living in a fantasy, I don't know what God means, eternal means, empathy means, pi means, I don't know history, mathematics, have a problem with the English language, make up my own definitions, use wordplay, have a cognizant disorder, I love taint tickle time feely goody, am selling a theory nobody wants and I'm either too dumb or a know it all depending on who I talk to. So yeah, my horizons have been broadened greatly. Thanks for asking.

Your response is unexpected. I thought you said you came to learn about atheists, namely us and our varying beliefs or unbeliefs. Your response here is filled with your perceptions of our observations of you, some of which, I'm almost certain, were in jest.

So, I'll ask again. What have you learned of us thus far? Who do you perceive us to be? What are our beliefs? If you truly came to understand us, we must assess your understanding so far so that we may correct as necessary.

Going solely by the response above I can only presume your presence here is merely for self entertainment. Is it?
I was going to bed, but you are too polite to pass up. I wish I were fresh of mind so I could address you at my best. It is fun getting to know you all. I am very entertained in defying your arguments to be sure. But that is because I Love the christ and God and how he changed my life. I admit I wish you all could see what I see and feel what I feel. I don't care if that sounds condescending, I respect you all too much to not be sincere. I don't think I am better than anyone here in any way.

Mainly I've learned that you all want to see evidence of God as a Person. The Christ has been presented to the world but this is not evidence to you. What would be evidence of God for you? I don't know. God is Spirit. Prove it the atheist will say. I point to the Love that is the common goodness in mankind. Atheists believe Love evolved. So mostly I have learned that the atheist sees no reason for life, it is a cosmic accident. In essence everything in this physical existence means nothing. I just don't believe you actually believe that deep down.

Where is the hope in atheism? To me you all are stuck in a shell or perhaps a cocoon wherein you find solace and wish to be left alone. God is only trouble in the atheistic thought. Hope is foolishness. I just can't believe you believe this way. Evolution? Evolution has many holes, but the atheist does not seem to recognize there is no proof that life began by itself. I'm tired. Perhaps I will think of better things to say tommorrow. I would like to thank you for your sincere responses to me, and would greatly appreciate your correction on anything I have said that is not correct about what you all believe.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2013, 11:23 PM
RE: the God term
(17-04-2013 09:57 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 09:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Then you devalue it, and it essentially means nothing to you.
If you love everyone, it's nothing special.
It's thus meaningless.
So much for this thread.
Say what? Love is all there is. It is Eternal I tell you. It never is devalued, it only grows. Man, you don't know what you're missing.

Alright, hold on. You're getting your taint in a tizzy again. Blush

Love is probably the most important and influential emotion that humanity has, second maybe only to fear. You want to know more about atheists? I'll bite. You started out a little sketchy, but seem to be becoming more genuine as this thread progresses so I'll throw my 2 coppers at ya.

Eternal? Where is the evidence of that? We can go to the bible but that's a whole other discussion. My love isn't eternal, it's here and now. It will cease to be but a memory once I've retired from this earth. That's what gives it it's potency. I don't know what I'm missing? I feel the same love as you, brother, we just interpret it's significance a little bit differently.

You're afraid that eternity doesn't exist for you, so you cling to the belief that your most sacred emotions (love, empathy) come from and are a part of god, an eternal force. Therefore your life-force (soul) must also be eternal. This is a very comforting thought, but not rational.

As an atheist I believe that this life is it. You interpret that right off to mean that I attribute no meaning to life. This would be a false assumption. If this is all I have, then every moment is that much more precious. Every chance I have to enjoy this beautiful, awesome earth and the wonderful people in my life is that much more valuable. I thank my lucky balls that I am fortunate to be able to play a small role in this clusterfuck of an existence we call life.

Do I fear death? No. The late, great Cristopher Hitchens said (and of course I can't find the damn quote at the moment) something to the effect of, we aren't aware of not being alive for all of eternity before we are born and it doesn't bother us, why would we think we'll be bothered by not existing after we die? (he said it much better than that) All matters of my life will cease to exist to me after I cease to exist, so it's inconsequential. My only fear concerning death is concerned within this life. Am I doing everything I can to live to the fullest while I am here? My regrets about my death only exist as a realization that I will never be able to experience everything that I want to in the short time I have here.

The way we live on is in our legacy. It's in the art we make, the music we create. The love and memories that will stay with our families and friends after we are gone. And, if we are lucky and motivated enough, maybe something we have done in life will live on to be remembered by the world long after our death.

That's the reason for reason, for inquiry, and critical thinking. After you shrug off the simple superstition that faith is, you are free to embrace the natural complexities of this world. The universe is simply awe inspiring (no god required), and learning about it is much more stimulating than simply chalking it up to god and sitting around going, "man, can't wait for heaven cus this place is kinda shitty". Perhaps one day my legacy will be to contribute something to further the evolution of humanity.

It probably won't be anything grand, but if it's only the simple things it's okay. Helping a friend through a rough time, raising my sons to be awesome little heathens, being a loving husband to my wife because she's fucking awesome and deserves it. Everything I can contribute to every moment of my life that is good and enjoyable is worth it because that's all I have. And I am bound and determined to make the most of it.

I am an atheist because god was too important to me to take lightly. I finally had to be honest with myself and ask those hard questions and find satisfying answers to them. I finally screwed up enough courage to look god straight in the eye....

Fuck me, but I was just looking at myself the whole time.

It's a scary thing to let go of faith, and for a lot of reasons. But I'm a better, more confident and surefooted person for having done so. This life and it's craziness makes a lot more sense now that I don't have to attribute everything to a magic entity.

But I don't speak for everyone else, this is just what my atheism means to me. Hope that helps some.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 12 users Like evenheathen's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: