the God term
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15-04-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:42 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 01:39 PM)childeye Wrote:  Me too. How about mosquitos?

They cause around a million deaths every year through the transmission of diseases, not much love is reserved for mosquitos.

They're more than just a simple nuisance, and can be quite dangerous.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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15-04-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 12:04 PM)childeye Wrote:  Presently, I don't consider "I" as that important as compared to "others" when believing in an altruistic Love.

Thank you for a description of relativism as in western, Muslim, eastern and so on. I would describe such differences as cultural while empathy is a common experience in all cultures. That is why I am convinced that God is a reality despite some here who would find that use of the term offensive. It's as if people have had some bad experiences with those who claim God as their guide even though they themselves do know Love.

Empathy is an emotional response that's been around since men lived in caves long before knowledge of fire. It hasn't anything to do with gods or the monotheistic version of god.

Also I have no problem with the "term" god. I do not find it the least bit offensive. What I do find routinely offensive is how the word is used by people who presume superiority based on the writings and rambles of a book written in the bronze age.

Shoo fly
I respectfully would point out, that as a moral absolute, empathy is indeed a monotheistic existence. I agree with you about people who would presume superiority based on the writings of a book. Still I would forgive them, not based on my superiority, but because I know they are misguided even as I once was. At any rate those same kind of people you find unlikable, crucified the Christ out of the very same pride you describe.
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15-04-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 12:43 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Thank you for stating your position in relatively clear words. I need more info though.

Define "Love" in practical terms, as in what type of love you're talking about (without using theological words like god, spiritual, gospel, etc.). Love of a spouse? Love of a child? Love as a vague term for altruism?

Define "Spiritual Truth" and how it differs from the term "Absolute Morality", again without relying on theological terms

Define "Spirit"

AFTER doing that, explain why if "Love" is a "Spiritual Truth" in "all men" (and women I presume), there exist sociopaths who do NOT experience love or altruism, at least not in any way resembling that of a typical person.
Thanks Phaedrus for this excellent response. The type of Love I am talking about is empathy. It is hard to avoid semantics here. Empathy of course can be in a marriage apart from the hormonal drives or physical attraction. I see a True Love as having an altruistic purpose. Hence a Mothers Love is in it's truest sense, is very much the Love I am talking about. Basically, the willingness to lay down one's life so others may have life.

I liken Spiritual Truth to that actual reality that recognizes Love as the goodness in mankind and consequently that this Love is bigger than just one person. To cherish love would be the consequence of such knowledge. Conversely ignorance of this reality would produce a spirit in a person that is contrary to Love and therefore immoral to some degree as per one's ignorance.

Spirit is the feelings or emotions that constitute our character and countenance. This would be distinct from that which is physical or biological. Not that biological impulses do not affect emotions, as they most certainly do. But as per the topic of this thread, that morally speaking, when we consider how it is for others, so as to put ourselves in their shoes, we experience empathy. And this empathy causes us to feel the pain and joy of others. This empathy does not come upon our mental deliberation, nor can we turn it off even though we might run from it.

Your last question forces me to speak in terms that are more speculative regarding a sociopath. But first I would make a point. I do not claim that Love is in all men as a Spiritual Truth. I am claiming that empathy is a Spiritual prerequisite for the moral impetus to occur in any man\woman.

Having said that, I don't know how someone can feel no love. It seems to me they would only understand the hardwired impetus of the flesh which regards comfort as good and pain as bad. There emotions would probably be more akin to indifference ar amoral.


Where did love reside before there were any people to experience it?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-04-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:49 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 01:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Empathy is an emotional response that's been around since men lived in caves long before knowledge of fire. It hasn't anything to do with gods or the monotheistic version of god.

Also I have no problem with the "term" god. I do not find it the least bit offensive. What I do find routinely offensive is how the word is used by people who presume superiority based on the writings and rambles of a book written in the bronze age.

Shoo fly
I respectfully would point out, that as a moral absolute, empathy is indeed a monotheistic existence. I agree with you about people who would presume superiority based on the writings of a book. Still I would forgive them, not based on my superiority, but because I know they are misguided even as I once was. At any rate those same kind of people you find unlikable, crucified the Christ out of the very same pride you describe.

Altruism negates your assertion that empathy is connected to any type of human-centered god.

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—Thomas Henry Huxley
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15-04-2013, 01:53 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:39 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 01:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I Heart giraffes
Me too. How about mosquitos?


The existence of mosquitoes is sufficient evidence for the non-existence of a benevolent god. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-04-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 01:39 PM)childeye Wrote:  Me too. How about mosquitos?


The existence of mosquitoes is sufficient evidence for the non-existence of a benevolent god. Drinking Beverage

Life needing to take life in order to live is enough to negate the existence of a malevolent god.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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15-04-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:49 PM)childeye Wrote:  I respectfully would point out, that as a moral absolute, empathy is indeed a monotheistic existence.

So, all those animals that show empathy are theistic.

Got ya.

What denomination do you think Dolphins are?


...

...you don't even have to be human to show empathy; therefore, empathy isn't a monotheistic existence.

If it is, then which channel can I find Joel Dolphsteen?

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15-04-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 01:49 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 01:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Empathy is an emotional response that's been around since men lived in caves long before knowledge of fire. It hasn't anything to do with gods or the monotheistic version of god.

Also I have no problem with the "term" god. I do not find it the least bit offensive. What I do find routinely offensive is how the word is used by people who presume superiority based on the writings and rambles of a book written in the bronze age.

Shoo fly
I respectfully would point out, that as a moral absolute, empathy is indeed a monotheistic existence. I agree with you about people who would presume superiority based on the writings of a book. Still I would forgive them, not based on my superiority, but because I know they are misguided even as I once was. At any rate those same kind of people you find unlikable, crucified the Christ out of the very same pride you describe.

So, there was no empathy before monotheism Drinking Beverage wow...

Oh no worries I forgive you for being misguided and claiming superiority based on a book.

We good now?

Shoo fly!


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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15-04-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 11:47 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 11:32 AM)childeye Wrote:  Actually, he was charged with blaspheme.

Yes, because he failed to fulfill the prophesy of the "real" messiah. Anyone claiming that was already guilty of blasphemy. Being nailed to the cross..and for the record many ended up that way too for varying reasons, has nothing to do wo it. Because that wasn't part of the prophesy...just a story told later to make it seem plausible.

I say "shoo fly" to those of your ilk who seem to think they have the idea they are going to provide the "gotcha" moment to those of us who are good without the idea or notion of god or gods.

Imagine this...your sitting at a picnic table, on a warm summer day enjoying a most pleasant time, save for the fly buzzing around the platters and plates of food. The fly is only a mild annoyance. Something to be shoo'd away, but always returns..

Shoo fly
I'm sorry if I have come across as someone trying to get a gotcha moment. I have sincerely tried to not appear as having such guile. I assure you, I see nothing to be gained by trying to put you down. While I acknowledge that such things do occur with some people, it would be unto my shame to be seen by God doing so.

Regarding what you say about a story told afterwards, there is some truth to that. In fact it would have had to be so for the crucifixion event to occur as it did. The Jews who put Jesus to death could not know what they were about to do, otherwise they would not have done it.
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15-04-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: the God term
(15-04-2013 02:02 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 11:47 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Yes, because he failed to fulfill the prophesy of the "real" messiah. Anyone claiming that was already guilty of blasphemy. Being nailed to the cross..and for the record many ended up that way too for varying reasons, has nothing to do wo it. Because that wasn't part of the prophesy...just a story told later to make it seem plausible.

I say "shoo fly" to those of your ilk who seem to think they have the idea they are going to provide the "gotcha" moment to those of us who are good without the idea or notion of god or gods.

Imagine this...your sitting at a picnic table, on a warm summer day enjoying a most pleasant time, save for the fly buzzing around the platters and plates of food. The fly is only a mild annoyance. Something to be shoo'd away, but always returns..

Shoo fly
I'm sorry if I have come across as someone trying to get a gotcha moment. I have sincerely tried to not appear as having such guile. I assure you, I see nothing to be gained by trying to put you down. While I acknowledge that such things do occur with some people, it would be unto my shame to be seen by God doing so.

Regarding what you say about a story told afterwards, there is some truth to that. In fact it would have had to be so for the crucifixion event to occur as it did. The Jews who put Jesus to death could not know what they were about to do, otherwise they would not have done it.

I notice you ignored my question. To difficult to deal with the reality rather than the happy fluffy story you heard in church?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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