the God term
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21-04-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 02:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Time, space, location, culture, and situation. Abraham Lincoln would be considered a bigot and racist by today's standards yet in his day he was considered radically pro-negro.
You are saying that people define what is morality depending upon circumstances. so the term moral is a free floating definition according to an atheist? Hence if a cannibal eats his neighbors child this is moral behavior. So do you personally think that eating the neighbor's child is moral or immoral?

Depends, how old is the child? I personally believe that when the child becomes old enough to eat other babies, it becomes a functional part of society. Anything younger than that is fair game. Drooling

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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21-04-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: the God term
Bump, come on guys, only ten more pages of nonsense til we hit 100!

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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21-04-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 02:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Time, space, location, culture, and situation. Abraham Lincoln would be considered a bigot and racist by today's standards yet in his day he was considered radically pro-negro.
You are saying that people define what is morality depending upon circumstances. so the term moral is a free floating definition according to an atheist? Hence if a cannibal eats his neighbors child this is moral behavior. So do you personally think that eating the neighbor's child is moral or immoral?

An Atheist describes it as such, me. I am not so vain as to claim everyone who doesn't believe in a higher power shares my views on anything except that.

In the case of the cannibal, you neglected to mention the circumstances around his actions. From my perspective, relatively wealthy (compared to the rest of the world and the majority of the population throughout history) safe, secure, well fed, and highly educated (again comparably to the rest of the population now and from the dawn of humanity) it would be immoral for me to do such a thing. My culture considers cannibalism abhorrent in any but life threatening situations.

Now this child did he die of natural causes or was he murdered by the man eating him? If it was murder then we have entered a new section of morality so lets say for the sake of this hypothetical that we are just dealing with the actual eating of human flesh as the topic. So then if the child was dead due to causes other than the Cannibal it enters a murky grey area where his motivation for eating the child comes into play.

Is he the local Witchdoctor who is eating the flesh symbolically? Is he a conquering tribal leader who, after defeating the rival tribe is ingesting the spirit of the tribe (this depends on what you meant by neighbor)? Is he insane and shunned by the villagers and eats the dead regardless of what the local taboo's on such an act are? Is cannibalism part of the burial process in their culture?

Now to Me (and I would assume You as well since you seem to share the same culture as I do for the most part) none of those reasons would be sufficient for me to commit such an act but I could understand why the hypothetical Canibal would not see his act as immoral.

To some religions burying the dead is sacrilege to others burning on a pyre is. To me neither is, so would it be immoral for me to bury or cremate my dead loved ones? No, but if they did that in their culture it would be immoral.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-04-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:10 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 08:00 AM)childeye Wrote:  I told you the honest truth that I didn't know how old the earth is and then you touted the brightests minds estimating it to be 4.6 billion years which means you don't know either. Next time just ask me to esttimate how old the earth is instead of asking me if I know how old it is.

You are a moron.

***Let me edit this for clarification in the event someone out there may take this to be an unwarranted ad hominem attack. You don't get to play word games without blowback, number one. Secondly, the information is out there on the web, in books, peer-reviewed scientific papers etc. If you don't take any interest in learning anything or doing a little research then you are acting like a moron.

As for me not personally knowing because I say I accept the learned authority of our brightest minds is a moronic statement.
I've read that using radiometric age dating (using known decay rates in isotopes) we, as in the human race, knows that our planet is about 4.54 billion years old. Have I done these tests personally? No. But multiple corroborated experiments show this to be accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

I've also read that the Sun is about 93 million miles away from planet Earth. Have I personally measured this? No. But I'm quite certain its true based on the literature.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questio...number=400

I could go on but I think the audience understands why I think you are a moron.
I understand what you mean. I do not dabble in wordplay as you suggest. I am simply saying I don't know when I don't know. The scientists you quote are estimating which by definition means they estimate but do not know as a certainty.
Let me ask you this. For what purpose do you personally find this knowledge of value?
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21-04-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:47 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 02:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  You are saying that people define what is morality depending upon circumstances. so the term moral is a free floating definition according to an atheist? Hence if a cannibal eats his neighbors child this is moral behavior. So do you personally think that eating the neighbor's child is moral or immoral?

An Atheist describes it as such, me. I am not so vain as to claim everyone who doesn't believe in a higher power shares my views on anything except that.

In the case of the cannibal, you neglected to mention the circumstances around his actions. From my perspective, relatively wealthy (compared to the rest of the world and the majority of the population throughout history) safe, secure, well fed, and highly educated (again comparably to the rest of the population now and from the dawn of humanity) it would be immoral for me to do such a thing. My culture considers cannibalism abhorrent in any but life threatening situations.

Now this child did he die of natural causes or was he murdered by the man eating him? If it was murder then we have entered a new section of morality so lets say for the sake of this hypothetical that we are just dealing with the actual eating of human flesh as the topic. So then if the child was dead due to causes other than the Cannibal it enters a murky grey area where his motivation for eating the child comes into play.

Is he the local Witchdoctor who is eating the flesh symbolically? Is he a conquering tribal leader who, after defeating the rival tribe is ingesting the spirit of the tribe (this depends on what you meant by neighbor)? Is he insane and shunned by the villagers and eats the dead regardless of what the local taboo's on such an act are? Is cannibalism part of the burial process in their culture?

Now to Me (and I would assume You as well since you seem to share the same culture as I do for the most part) none of those reasons would be sufficient for me to commit such an act but I could understand why the hypothetical Canibal would not see his act as immoral.

To some religions burying the dead is sacrilege to others burning on a pyre is. To me neither is, so would it be immoral for me to bury or cremate my dead loved ones? No, but if they did that in their culture it would be immoral.
I submit that even to this day the spirit of cannibalism is going on even now as some die so others may grow rich.
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21-04-2013, 02:55 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 02:09 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  The ontological argument is a bit of a tough one if you're not familiar with it. Let's see if I can put it simply in context with your argument.

You believe that there is no greater empathetic love that could be imagined than that of the christ who sacrificed himself on the cross so that us poor sinners might know such love.

If we are to believe that this love is ultimate and absolute, it has to be true. Therefore, god.

It's an interesting argument that's been puzzled over for centuries. However, when broken down into the logical fallacy it is, it is refuted quite easily. I'd lay it out for you, but I'm tired and lazy. Look into it, you might learn something. Consider

If anyone else is bored enough to chip in, go for it.
I appreciate the honesty of you're tired and lazy sentiment. So am I and more often as I get older. I do not see a greater Love than sacrificing one's own life for others. I can't imagine the logic that sees a greater Love. I can see such love being disputed as God which of course anything can be disputed as God.

Do I need to translate this? It's circular and aphasia riddled...but it's loaded with back-handed compliment.

In the meantime..

Shoo fly


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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21-04-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:54 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 02:47 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  An Atheist describes it as such, me. I am not so vain as to claim everyone who doesn't believe in a higher power shares my views on anything except that.

In the case of the cannibal, you neglected to mention the circumstances around his actions. From my perspective, relatively wealthy (compared to the rest of the world and the majority of the population throughout history) safe, secure, well fed, and highly educated (again comparably to the rest of the population now and from the dawn of humanity) it would be immoral for me to do such a thing. My culture considers cannibalism abhorrent in any but life threatening situations.

Now this child did he die of natural causes or was he murdered by the man eating him? If it was murder then we have entered a new section of morality so lets say for the sake of this hypothetical that we are just dealing with the actual eating of human flesh as the topic. So then if the child was dead due to causes other than the Cannibal it enters a murky grey area where his motivation for eating the child comes into play.

Is he the local Witchdoctor who is eating the flesh symbolically? Is he a conquering tribal leader who, after defeating the rival tribe is ingesting the spirit of the tribe (this depends on what you meant by neighbor)? Is he insane and shunned by the villagers and eats the dead regardless of what the local taboo's on such an act are? Is cannibalism part of the burial process in their culture?

Now to Me (and I would assume You as well since you seem to share the same culture as I do for the most part) none of those reasons would be sufficient for me to commit such an act but I could understand why the hypothetical Canibal would not see his act as immoral.

To some religions burying the dead is sacrilege to others burning on a pyre is. To me neither is, so would it be immoral for me to bury or cremate my dead loved ones? No, but if they did that in their culture it would be immoral.
I submit that even to this day the spirit of cannibalism is going on even now as some die so others may grow rich.

A vapid statement, with no real meaning and only an attempt at depth by a shallow pool.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-04-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:54 PM)childeye Wrote:  I submit that even to this day the spirit of cannibalism is going on even now as some die so others may grow rich.

Wait! Didn't you claim the opposite a few pages back? Or tried to say that Earmuffs was wrong in his interpretation?

Shoo fly


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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21-04-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 03:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  A vapid statement, with no real meaning and only an attempt at depth by a shallow pool.

brilliantly stated!


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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21-04-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: the God term
(21-04-2013 02:47 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 02:10 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  You are a moron.

***Let me edit this for clarification in the event someone out there may take this to be an unwarranted ad hominem attack. You don't get to play word games without blowback, number one. Secondly, the information is out there on the web, in books, peer-reviewed scientific papers etc. If you don't take any interest in learning anything or doing a little research then you are acting like a moron.

As for me not personally knowing because I say I accept the learned authority of our brightest minds is a moronic statement.
I've read that using radiometric age dating (using known decay rates in isotopes) we, as in the human race, knows that our planet is about 4.54 billion years old. Have I done these tests personally? No. But multiple corroborated experiments show this to be accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

I've also read that the Sun is about 93 million miles away from planet Earth. Have I personally measured this? No. But I'm quite certain its true based on the literature.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questio...number=400

I could go on but I think the audience understands why I think you are a moron.
I understand what you mean. I do not dabble in wordplay as you suggest. I am simply saying I don't know when I don't know. The scientists you quote are estimating which by definition means they estimate but do not know as a certainty.
Let me ask you this. For what purpose do you personally find this knowledge of value?

Yes you do dabble in wordplay.

I think you are either hiding as a Young-Earth believer when you say you don't know the age of the Earth, or you write speeches for Marco Rubio.

When geologist tell you the Earth is 4.54 billion years old, within 1% accuracy I'd say that falls in the WE'RE PRETTY FUCKING SURE column. (The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%)

I, unlike you apparently, value all knowledge. It helps paint a clearer picture of where we fit in the scope of the universe without resorting to woo like you do.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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