the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
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01-07-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(30-06-2014 11:44 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(30-06-2014 11:17 PM)Roger_the_alien Wrote:  I just posted my introduction today and got a lot of very warm welcomes, so thank you all for that. I just wanted to go ahead and post what I guess you would call the final straw that made me really come to terms with what a sham Christianity really is. My aunt died a couple of years ago and at first I clung to Christianity as my way of coping with the loss as I tried to push the anger and questioning to the side. The more time has went on the more clearly I'm able to think about things. My aunt was like a second mother to me... she was only 39 and was one of the best people in this world. She was an elementary teacher and only brought good things to this world. The longer time went on, the angrier I got that a god that's supposed to be just and merciful could take someone like her and leave all the scum on this earth to rape and murder. Not only that but the blatant lie in the bible that says something like if two or more people pray for something it will be done... that's clearly not true because there were hundreds praying for my aunt. She was the first person I've ever lost that I truly loved. I always thought death would make some sense, that somehow if it was 'meant to be,' like christians always say it is, 'whatever happens is god's will'... that it would at least feel like it was supposed to happen. Her death did not, and it still does not. It was wrong, it wasn't fair, it wasn't 'meant to happen,' there was no reason for it. It just happened. Like all the other bad stuff that happens in this world. Realizing that actually has helped me to cope. Now I don't feel like I have to figure out why she died, what good reason there was for it that god didn't save her. I know death is a pretty generic reason of giving up faith and honestly I would have never thought I'd be one of those. I thought no matter what happened I'd hold true to the faith and trust in god... but here I am. Sorry to get so morbid on you guys so quickly... just wanted to share some of my story.


I know what you felt about your aunt. My sister passed away after struggling with cancer, and Sunday was her funeral service. She was 29yrs old when she passed. The well meaning pastor during the service addressed the question of how or why such a thing could happen to someone so young and someone who, like your aunt, was a very thoughtful and caring person (so much more than I am). I give the pastor credit for not trying to come up with some reason. He answered at least honestly enough by saying there was no reason, and that the faith does not try to answer these questions that are not answerable. I think some people would try to say that these things "happen for a reason" as some family and friends said in their attempts to console our family.

The pastor said instead that believers should rely on their faith and hope that the promise of life after death would be delivered on. Throughout the service there were pleas and prayers in the prepared responses asking to have the strength to believe in this message. I couldn't help but thinking throughout that we were all being asked to believe a lie, that the reason we had to "pray that we might believe" that there was life after death was because it wasn't particularly believable. I came to this funeral service already a firm atheist. I found nothing from the religious aspects of the service that moved me to reconsider my beliefs and only saw nothing more than self affirming wishful thinking.

Sorry for your loss. Both my parents are dead so I understand just a little what you have gone through. Notice I didn't say they had "passed on". Death isn't like passing through a border checkpoint between two countries. One just ceases to exist, but that's another topic.

Anyway, if prayer worked we wouldn't need doctors. I sometimes think about the Black Plague during the Middle Ages and how fervently people must have prayed for their recovery from such agony and how little it mattered. Many millions suffered horrible, indescribable death and many of these people had complete belief in god yet it killed millions anyway. Some did survive and I suppose they felt gods hand reached down and pulled them back from death, somehow they were special and other weren't because they didn't pray the correct way or believe sincerely enough. To be religious is to be rude and condescending to anyone who thinks differently. It's the height of smugness.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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01-07-2014, 08:11 PM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(30-06-2014 11:17 PM)Roger_the_alien Wrote:  I know death is a pretty generic reason of giving up faith and honestly I would have never thought I'd be one of those. I thought no matter what happened I'd hold true to the faith and trust in god... but here I am. Sorry to get so morbid on you guys so quickly... just wanted to share some of my story.

I'm sorry for your loss. That being said, there is something quite liberating when you stop trying to shoehorn all of reality into a bunch of post hoc justification.
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01-07-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(01-07-2014 08:06 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Anyway, if prayer worked we wouldn't need doctors. I sometimes think about the Black Plague during the Middle Ages and how fervently people must have prayed for their recovery from such agony and how little it mattered. Many millions suffered horrible, indescribable death and many of these people had complete belief in god yet it killed millions anyway. Some did survive and I suppose they felt gods hand reached down and pulled them back from death, somehow they were special and other weren't because they didn't pray the correct way or believe sincerely enough. To be religious is to be rude and condescending to anyone who thinks differently. It's the height of smugness.

Agreed. The whole prayer thing is just incredibly condescending, and it's amazing that religious people can't see that. It's one of the things that really turned me away from religion. It implies that some people are more special in the eyes of God than others, yet we're all supposed to be "God's children".

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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01-07-2014, 08:49 PM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
Bad things don't necessarily happen to good people, or vice versa. Things just happen.

As I wrote in my article, Psychology of Faith: The Human Quest for Meaning, published in the January edition of Australian Atheist Magazine of the Atheist Foundation of Australia:

"Attributing spiritual characteristics to seemingly random tragedies allowed our primitive minds to make sense of natural disasters, to formulate reasons for the inexplicably unfair capriciousness of life. We see God when there are no explanations, when there is no sense or meaning to random events. . . .

. . . Ultimately, however, it is this compelling drive to find meaning in life that is at the root of the psychology of faith. . . . But, too many of us get lost in our cognitive illusions, unaware of the reality. We seek, in vain, meaning where there is none."

Manifest Insanity @ Amazon
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01-07-2014, 09:15 PM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(30-06-2014 11:17 PM)Roger_the_alien Wrote:  I just posted my introduction today and got a lot of very warm welcomes, so thank you all for that. I just wanted to go ahead and post what I guess you would call the final straw that made me really come to terms with what a sham Christianity really is. My aunt died a couple of years ago and at first I clung to Christianity as my way of coping with the loss as I tried to push the anger and questioning to the side. The more time has went on the more clearly I'm able to think about things. My aunt was like a second mother to me... she was only 39 and was one of the best people in this world. She was an elementary teacher and only brought good things to this world. The longer time went on, the angrier I got that a god that's supposed to be just and merciful could take someone like her and leave all the scum on this earth to rape and murder. Not only that but the blatant lie in the bible that says something like if two or more people pray for something it will be done... that's clearly not true because there were hundreds praying for my aunt. She was the first person I've ever lost that I truly loved. I always thought death would make some sense, that somehow if it was 'meant to be,' like christians always say it is, 'whatever happens is god's will'... that it would at least feel like it was supposed to happen. Her death did not, and it still does not. It was wrong, it wasn't fair, it wasn't 'meant to happen,' there was no reason for it. It just happened. Like all the other bad stuff that happens in this world. Realizing that actually has helped me to cope. Now I don't feel like I have to figure out why she died, what good reason there was for it that god didn't save her. I know death is a pretty generic reason of giving up faith and honestly I would have never thought I'd be one of those. I thought no matter what happened I'd hold true to the faith and trust in god... but here I am. Sorry to get so morbid on you guys so quickly... just wanted to share some of my story.

Everything in the universe has an equal and opposite reaction to its catalyst.

It could be a passed-life issue, and her karma was balanced by this accident.

Besides any metaphysical implications you can view that death is quite a phase of life, and not something that is "awarded" by who "deserves" it the most.
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02-07-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
Thank you all for the condolences. I'm sure everyone will think that I'm just mad at god for not saving my aunt, but I don't think I was ever really mad AT god. Because all my life even when I was in my most religious phase, I still had doubts there even was a god. I was mad at the situation, mad that if he was there he didn't save her. It just took that one personal situation for me to open my eyes to how little sense all of this made and how brainwashed I have been. I was raised in church so literally I have been brainwashed. When I realized that, I realized it was going to take some time for me to get over it. It wasn't something like I'll just wake up the next morning and be an atheist lol. I've got a lifetime of brainwashing to sort through, to try to see the lies for what they are, and look at it from a fresh perspective and see what little sense it all makes. Something else I've noticed lately is that every time something good happens the christians praise god. Like a girl I knows dad has been really bad off and is getting better and she's really been praising god over it. I wonder if he hadn't got better. Would she think her god is amazing and loving and wonderful then? Something else that doesn't make sense to me is when something happens like you miss your ride or plane and there ends up being an accident or something. People say, god saved me from that... what about all the other people he didn't save from it? He just lets them all go to their death, but no, you're special, he saved you from it. Pretty narcissistic if you ask me.
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02-07-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(01-07-2014 09:15 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  Everything in the universe has an equal and opposite reaction to its catalyst.

That doesn't even make sense.


Quote:It could be a passed-life issue,


*past-life. Which is woo.
Quote:and her karma was balanced by this accident.

Woo.


Quote:Besides any metaphysical implications

Woo.


Quote:you can view that death is quite a phase of life, and not something that is "awarded" by who "deserves" it the most.

Captain Obvious. Facepalm

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-07-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(01-07-2014 09:15 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  
(30-06-2014 11:17 PM)Roger_the_alien Wrote:  I just posted my introduction today and got a lot of very warm welcomes, so thank you all for that. I just wanted to go ahead and post what I guess you would call the final straw that made me really come to terms with what a sham Christianity really is. My aunt died a couple of years ago and at first I clung to Christianity as my way of coping with the loss as I tried to push the anger and questioning to the side. The more time has went on the more clearly I'm able to think about things. My aunt was like a second mother to me... she was only 39 and was one of the best people in this world. She was an elementary teacher and only brought good things to this world. The longer time went on, the angrier I got that a god that's supposed to be just and merciful could take someone like her and leave all the scum on this earth to rape and murder. Not only that but the blatant lie in the bible that says something like if two or more people pray for something it will be done... that's clearly not true because there were hundreds praying for my aunt. She was the first person I've ever lost that I truly loved. I always thought death would make some sense, that somehow if it was 'meant to be,' like christians always say it is, 'whatever happens is god's will'... that it would at least feel like it was supposed to happen. Her death did not, and it still does not. It was wrong, it wasn't fair, it wasn't 'meant to happen,' there was no reason for it. It just happened. Like all the other bad stuff that happens in this world. Realizing that actually has helped me to cope. Now I don't feel like I have to figure out why she died, what good reason there was for it that god didn't save her. I know death is a pretty generic reason of giving up faith and honestly I would have never thought I'd be one of those. I thought no matter what happened I'd hold true to the faith and trust in god... but here I am. Sorry to get so morbid on you guys so quickly... just wanted to share some of my story.

Everything in the universe has an equal and opposite reaction to its catalyst.

It could be a passed-life issue, and her karma was balanced by this accident.

Besides any metaphysical implications you can view that death is quite a phase of life, and not something that is "awarded" by who "deserves" it the most.



That whole post was just nonsensical woo. Were you quoting Deepak Chopra or something?

Or perhaps your post was a sampling from this site?
http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/
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02-07-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: the cliche', "why do bad things happen to good people"
(01-07-2014 09:15 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  Everything in the universe has an equal and opposite reaction to its catalyst.

It could be a passed-life issue, and her karma was balanced by this accident.

Besides any metaphysical implications you can view that death is quite a phase of life, and not something that is "awarded" by who "deserves" it the most.

So, what you are saying is that because of a "passed-life" issue, Roger's aunt deserved to die in this fashion.

At first, I was ready to dismiss you as a fruitcake but now I realize you are a dangerous fruitcake. Please take your medicine.

Doc
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