the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
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15-06-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 07:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 07:50 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Since you aren't arguing for objective morality, are you arguing for divine morality?

I'm not arguing for any of those things.

I'm just arguing that believing that an all-powerful God, is perfectly Good, even in light of evil existing in the world is not a logically contradictory belief, since that's what the OP is suggesting and is about.

I can hold to the belief in an omni-God, and acknowledge that evil exists in the world, but the last thing anyone here can argue that this is contradictory, that the existence of evil, negates the Goodness of God, as if their stating an objective fact, when in fact they're not, which they readily acknowledge when stating morality is subjective.

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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15-06-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 08:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 08:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, you redefine what "good" means so that the evil shit your god does is still "good." And you STILL don't see the logical contradiction in redefining a word/concept to preserve the "goodness" of your god.


If your a liberal minded humanist, you have a particular subjective definition and standard of what Good means.

If you're not a liberal minded humanist you have different subjective definition and standard. Perhaps one standard of good, is built of a consequentialist moral outlook, based on actions, while another moral outlook is based on perceived intentions and not the act.

No one has redefined the meaning of Good, because there is no single definition of Good to be redefined. We just have differing definitions of Good. Which should be obvious to anyone who believes that morality is subjective.

This is why Christianity is failing, society has judged that this biblical morality is abhorrent and all you can do is say -I know your morality is subjective but so is mine. Killing babies is ok!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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15-06-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 08:39 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  YOU apply one meaning of "good" to yourself and humans and ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VERSION OF "GOOD" to your god.

And you know that how? Do you know how I define Good in regards to humans? Since you think I define it differently when it comes to God?

You'd have to know that, to suggest I'm inconsistent with my criteria, or my judgement. But you don't.

Quote:This isn't a matter of my subjective views, it is a matter of your logical inconsistencies.

Tell me what my criteria for Good is in regards to humans, and then point out how I'm inconsistent with this criteria when it comes to the God character of the bible. What was that again? You don't know this.

Quote:Unless you only define god as good (which is redefining the word) and literally no other conscious entity can be good by definition, YOU are redefining words and the selectively applying them to fit your preconceived biases.

Actually I think it's more a matter of you projecting your own liberal humanistic moral views on to me.

Quote:Ergo, your god is only "good" because you define it as good, not because it meets any criteria to actually be good. Which means it isn't good, you're just saying it's good.

I'm not sure what it means for something to be actually good, when as you and others here claim what's Good is matter of subjective opinion. You just seem to want to label your subjective idea of Good, as actually Good, and other subjective ideas of Good, as not actually Good.

"And you know that how? Do you know how I define Good in regards to humans? Since you think I define it differently when it comes to God? "

1) I read what you write
2) a good person is easy to define since we know what the word "good" means. If YOU define it differently then that is YOUR redefining of a word to give it a different meaning so as to preserve your faith-based beliefs.

"You'd have to know that, to suggest I'm inconsistent with my criteria, or my judgement. But you don't. "

You post your bullshit, it's easy to read even if it is poorly written.

You're inconsistent with how these words are actually defined, because YOU redefine them for your god.

"Tell me what my criteria for Good is in regards to humans, and then point out how I'm inconsistent with this criteria when it comes to the God character of the bible. What was that again? You don't know this."

A good person doesn't do bad things. Your god has literally murdered millions of people. But you still define your god as "good" even though your god has done evil/bad things. Logical contradiction.

"Actually I think it's more a matter of you projecting your own liberal humanistic moral views on to me."

Tomato, the amateur psychologist.

"I'm not sure what it means for something to be actually good, when as you and others here claim what's Good is matter of subjective opinion. You just seem to want to label your subjective idea of Good, as actually Good, and other subjective ideas of Good, as not actually Good."

Now your word salad is getting worse.

You don't know what it means for something to actually be good, but you are certain your god is good? Dishonesty abounds. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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15-06-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 08:51 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Don't be an ass. The point is that our society views all of those actions as morally wrong. By publicly approving such actions, by condoning those crimes, you would have to defend your beliefs.

No society doesn’t view all those actions as morally wrong. If we were to take a survey of our society and as to whether they think the actions of the God character in the bible were morally wrong, you likely find divided views, with members of a society on the conservative christian, or religious side, not finding it morally wrong, while those of particular liberal humanist persuasion finding it morally wrong.

Quote:And the only reason I would care where you live is to ensure that I do not live near you.

Good, it’ll perhaps make room for a more tolerant neighbor, that would be easier to get along with.

Quote:This leaves subjective morality by default.

The funny thing about subjective morality is that you have to justify it. You can't sit back and say "god said it's wrong so it's wrong.”

Actually the thing about subjective morality is you don’t have to justify it. Because at the end of day no matter what your moral views are, it’s all reducible to whims of personal fancy, your particular taste, and feelings. That what's wrong, is merely that which feels wrong to me, that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Quote:According to Me:
Rape causes pain and suffering, both physical and mental.

I.E. Pain and suffering make me squeamish therefore its wrong.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-06-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 09:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  [quote]A good person doesn't do bad things. Your god has literally murdered millions of people. But you still define your god as "good" even though your god has done evil/bad things. Logical contradiction.


Yet, good and bad are subjective concepts. So what you define as a good a person doing bad things, someone else can see as a good person, doing good things. And you’d just a differing subjective opinions.

Does the meaning of morally Good have a universal definition, that’s been consistent through out time. IS the definition, the “meaning” of good you seem to appeal to as “the one we know the meaning of” a recent one? Does this definition define Good by actions, or intentions?

So you it seems you don’t know how I define Good, you just believe that there suppose supposed agreed upon meaning as to what Good means, and somehow believe that I hold to this meaning when it comes to humans, but not God?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-06-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 09:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
Quote:A good person doesn't do bad things. Your god has literally murdered millions of people. But you still define your god as "good" even though your god has done evil/bad things. Logical contradiction.


Yet, good and bad are subjective concepts. So what you define as a good a person doing bad things, someone else can see as a good person, doing good things. And you’d just a differing subjective opinions.

Does the meaning of morally Good have a universal definition, that’s been consistent through out time. IS the definition, the “meaning” of good you seem to appeal to as “the one we know the meaning of” a recent one? Does this definition define Good by actions, or intentions?

So you it seems you don’t know how I define Good, you just believe that there suppose supposed agreed upon meaning as to what Good means, and somehow believe that I hold to this meaning when it comes to humans, but not God?

Shifting the burden of proof.

It's not how I define good or bad, it is how YOU redefine it.

You know that the words "good" and "bad" are formally defined, right?

Words have meaning. You know that, right?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-06-2016, 09:34 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No society doesn’t view all those actions as morally wrong.

You're lying. Society has laws against rape, murder, incest, theft, etc.

(15-06-2016 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Good, it’ll perhaps make room for a more tolerant neighbor, that would be easier to get along with.

Perhaps. But if I were hearing voices in my head saying "This is god, kill you neighbor and take his stuff", I would refuse because those actions are morally wrong. I would also seek medical attention, but in any case, my neighbors would be safe.

How many neighbors have been killed by god-fearing conservatives?

(15-06-2016 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Actually the thing about subjective morality is you don’t have to justify it. Because at the end of day no matter what your moral views are, it’s all reducible to whims of personal fancy, your particular taste, and feelings. That what's wrong, is merely that which feels wrong to me, that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Sort of like the whims of a jealous, angry god?

One who would burn cities, curse women and drown the world in a flood?
All because people failed to live up to his expectations?

That seems pretty subjective to me.


(15-06-2016 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:According to Me:
Rape causes pain and suffering, both physical and mental.

I.E. Pain and suffering make me squeamish therefore its wrong.

Pain and suffering have measurable effects on an organism. Measurable NEGATIVE effects. Those effects will affect the victim, those who witness the events, any family, friends, etc. and even to some extent those who inflicted it the suffering.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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15-06-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 09:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  

Shifting the burden of proof.

It's not how I define good or bad, it is how YOU redefine it.

If your accusing of redefining, yes it does matter how you define it.

Quote:You know that the words "good" and "bad" are formally defined, right?

Words have meaning. You know that, right?

Words like morally Good and Bad have a variety of meanings, often dependent on one's moral philosophy and outlook. Consequentialist and those who subscribe to virtue ethics, don't have a shared understanding of what Good is. One defines good in light of consequences, and actions, the other in regards to intention.

So when you appeal to this "formally defined" concept of Good, please tell me if the formal definition is in relationship to actions, and consequences, or in relationship to one's intentions? You must know that right, since you seem to be so well acquainted with this supposed formal definition.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-06-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 09:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 09:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Shifting the burden of proof.

It's not how I define good or bad, it is how YOU redefine it.

If your accusing of redefining, yes it does matter how you define it.

Quote:You know that the words "good" and "bad" are formally defined, right?

Words have meaning. You know that, right?

Words like morally Good and Bad have a variety of meanings, often dependent on one's moral philosophy and outlook. Consequentialist and those who subscribe to virtue ethics, don't have a shared understanding of what Good is. One defines good in light of consequences, and actions, the other in regards to intention.

So when you appeal to this "formally defined" concept of Good, please tell me if the formal definition is in relationship to actions, and consequences, or in relationship to one's intentions? You must know that right, since you seem to be so well acquainted with this supposed formal definition.

"If your accusing of redefining, yes it does matter how you define it. "

Still shifting.

"Words like morally Good and Bad have a variety of meanings, often dependent on one's moral philosophy and outlook. Consequentialist and those who subscribe to virtue ethics, don't have a shared understanding of what Good is. One defines good in light of consequences, and actions, the other in regards to intention.

So when you appeal to this "formally defined" concept of Good, please tell me if the formal definition is in relationship to actions, and consequences, or in relationship to one's intentions? You must know that right, since you seem to be so well acquainted with this supposed formal definition."


Still shifting.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-06-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 09:34 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Pain and suffering have measurable effects on an organism. Measurable NEGATIVE effects. Those effects will affect the victim, those who witness the events, any family, friends, etc. and even to some extent those who inflicted it the suffering.

Sure pain suffering have measurable negative effects on an organism, we might agree on that. In fact calling people names on the internet, negative reps, etc...posting inflammatory picture of Mohammed on the internet, might cause measurable pain and suffering on certain parties, particularly emotionally.

But you standard or morality, which seems to be some form of consequentialism, that relates to overall pain and suffering as the measure of it, is just your subjective standard, and not to mention entirely arbitrary, because you're not bound by it, can dismiss it when inconvenient to you, abandon it like a fashion trend that's grown stale.

At the end of the day, the reason to avoid inflicting pain and suffering on others, is because it causes you to feel the equivalent of an upset stomach. It makes you feel uncomfortable and squeamish.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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