the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
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14-06-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 02:53 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  The God of the Bible is subjectively immoral but all of his laws are terrible,

And if one where to hold that the God of the bible is moral, and his laws are moral, he wouldn't be wrong, or logically incorrect, since it's subjective in your view. He would just have a different subjective opinion than you, like brown might be your favorite color, and blue his.

Quote:Yahweh is setting up a moral guideline that is objective, whether the rules are consistent with his behavior is not a matter of debate, he is hypocritical and breaks his own laws repeatedly, he is not objectively following his own standards.

Are they objective or absolute? There is a difference. Absolute would indicate that it's wrong regardless of situation, that one shouldn't lie even it for the sake of saving one's life. That you shouldn't kill someone, even for the sake of saving your family. This doesn't seem to be the moral guidelines of the bible. Objective perhaps, but not absolute.

Are they not abominations even if they are not absolute? Does yhwh not commit or dictate others in his order to commit things that are deemed abominations multiple times over. That yhwh making a deal then sitting around until his chosen folks were enslaved then he "remembered" he made a deal with them to control that promised land area and got them back there by killing the current inhabitants who did nothing to warrant being removed from land they had by some folks wandering from the south.

People will like to dictate how killing in war isn't murder, and it's murder that is the forbidden sinful act. Though isn't taking another peoples cities and land not stealing? Didn't they sack or even take over according to that legend some of the cities. Is it not stealing if it's war too and its ransaking. (even though the actual historical record and archaeological showings would find they just kinda took over culturally from inside those cities as a once minority group)

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14-06-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 06:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Are they not abominations even if they are not absolute?
Who said they're abominations? Wouldn't that just be another subjective value judgment?

If you see them as abominations, and I don't, does this suggest that one of us is correct here, and the other is not? Or do we just have a difference in opinion. Which if you're a liberal minded humanist, that wouldn't be surprising at all why we might not be on the same page.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 07:37 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(13-06-2016 02:31 PM)carusmm Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 02:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is that objectively true, or just your subjective opinion?

Everything is opinion, except atoms.

Titties aren't opinion, they are nice!
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14-06-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 06:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Are they not abominations even if they are not absolute?
Who said they're abominations? Wouldn't that just be another subjective value judgment?

If you see them as abominations, and I don't, does this suggest that one of us is correct here, and the other is not? Or do we just have a difference in opinion. Which if you're a liberal minded humanist, that wouldn't be surprising at all why we might not be on the same page.

Could well be that both of you are wrong!
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14-06-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 06:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Are they not abominations even if they are not absolute?
Who said they're abominations? Wouldn't that just be another subjective value judgment?

If you see them as abominations, and I don't, does this suggest that one of us is correct here, and the other is not? Or do we just have a difference in opinion. Which if you're a liberal minded humanist, that wouldn't be surprising at all why we might not be on the same page.

..the words say they are.. if they are anything, they are listed as such. that's the phrasing used. That's why I went to that because that's the direct words used.

Do you not understand the concept of Hypocritical? What does what you or I say have anything to do with this scenario. If Yhwh has his subjective value judgement and breaks his own subjective value judgement multiple times in no hyper reasoning self defense means, is that not hypocritical? Does this being that does these things ever use the time to defend these scenarios as such? While it seemed no justification was needed actually.

I'm not the one who gave someone else rules nor are you. Are you arguing some other point in your head? As if any world would what I think was an abomination or not had anything to do with anything relative...

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14-06-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you not understand the concept of Hypocritical? What does what you or I say have anything to do with this scenario. If Yhwh has his subjective value judgement and breaks his own subjective value judgement multiple times in no hyper reasoning self defense means, is that not hypocritical? Does this being that does these things ever use the time to defend these scenarios as such? While it seemed no justification was needed actually.

I'm not the one who gave someone else rules nor are you. Are you arguing some other point in your head?

Is it hypocritical for parents to set a curfew on their children, yet not abide by a curfew themselves? Is it hypocritical for a government to allow military personal to have high powered weapons easily at their disposal, but not to their average citizen? Is hypocritical for governments to have the ability to declare war, but not the average citizen?

What rules are you referring to anyways? Are these rules to be understand as absolute? Are we to understand the rule that prohibits lying to be absolute, that it's always wrong to lie, regardless of situation? Within the context of the bible clearly not.

Secondly are you claims of moral abhorrence of the biblical God, based on the bible supposed standards of what is right and wrong, or based on your subjective, perhaps liberal humanistic standards?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
The Problem of Evil has been debated by theologians and philosophers for centuries. Thinkers have argued that man cannot know the mind of god. That god acts in the greater good. Concepts like karma, reincarnation have been formulated to address the problem.

To argue that man cannot even ask the question, that seems to be the most pathetic, least honest and most intellectually inferior tactic of all.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 06:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And if one where to hold that the God of the bible is moral, and his laws are moral, he wouldn't be wrong, or logically incorrect, since it's subjective in your view. He would just have a different subjective opinion than you, like brown might be your favorite color, and blue his.


Are they objective or absolute? There is a difference. Absolute would indicate that it's wrong regardless of situation, that one shouldn't lie even it for the sake of saving one's life. That you shouldn't kill someone, even for the sake of saving your family. This doesn't seem to be the moral guidelines of the bible. Objective perhaps, but not absolute.

Are they not abominations even if they are not absolute? Does yhwh not commit or dictate others in his order to commit things that are deemed abominations multiple times over. That yhwh making a deal then sitting around until his chosen folks were enslaved then he "remembered" he made a deal with them to control that promised land area and got them back there by killing the current inhabitants who did nothing to warrant being removed from land they had by some folks wandering from the south.

People will like to dictate how killing in war isn't murder, and it's murder that is the forbidden sinful act. Though isn't taking another peoples cities and land not stealing? Didn't they sack or even take over according to that legend some of the cities. Is it not stealing if it's war too and its ransaking. (even though the actual historical record and archaeological showings would find they just kinda took over culturally from inside those cities as a once minority group)

They didn't kill every one, of those young and comely women they were allowed to do with as they wished. I once had a preacher explain that those were soldiers of God and as such would have had no desire to do anything bad to such innocent girls! Laughed my ass off in his face.
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14-06-2016, 11:13 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 10:30 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The Problem of Evil has been debated by theologians and philosophers for centuries. Thinkers have argued that man cannot know the mind of god. That god acts in the greater good. Concepts like karma, reincarnation have been formulated to address the problem.

To argue that man cannot even ask the question, that seems to be the most pathetic, least honest and most intellectually inferior tactic of all.


If you subjectively judge God as not Good, based on this or that, hey that's all you. When you accuse other who believe God is Good, of being logically contributory, you've made a categorical error. There's no contradiction in holding such a belief, let alone one that can be made by those who claim morality is subjective.

If I hold God is Good, even in light of the existence of suffering and evil, and you don't, I'm not sure how you would be able to argue I'm factually incorrect in holding such a view, at best we'd have a different concept of what it means to be Good.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 11:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you subjectively judge God as not Good, based on this or that, hey that's all you. When you accuse other who believe God is Good, of being logically contributory, you've made a categorical error.

I judge god as non-existent.
I judge the gods presented in holy books as inconsistent.

If you wish to discuss a specific god, feel free to do so.

(14-06-2016 11:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's no contradiction in holding such a belief, let alone one that can be made by those who claim morality is subjective.

We have evidence of subjective morality. Until you provide evidence of objective morality, then subjective morality is all we have.

(14-06-2016 11:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I hold God is Good, even in light of the existence of suffering and evil, and you don't, I'm not sure how you would be able to argue I'm factually incorrect in holding such a view, at best we'd have a different concept of what it means to be Good.

I don't believe in god. I can see irrefutable evidence that mankind (both individually and as a species) commits acts of great compassion as well as great atrocities. I don't need a god to explain this.

If you believe in a god that is good, then that directly contradicts what I know to be true. If you care to define a god, as in which god you believe in, then we can discuss the contradictions I see.

In the past, however, you have refused to do that. Your position is simply that we cannot even ask the question. That is morally unacceptable.

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