the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
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14-06-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 11:41 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  We have evidence of subjective morality. Until you provide evidence of objective morality, then subjective morality is all we have.

If all we have is subjective morality, then then the problem of evil, cannot be a logical contradiction. It would just mean that according to your subjective moral values, x is not Good, while those who disagree with you, hold a different set of subjective moral values that make X Good.

They are no more right or wrong, than you are.

Quote:In the past, however, you have refused to do that. Your position is simply that we cannot even ask the question. That is morally unacceptable.

No, you can ask the question all you want. I'm just pointing out that your criticism here, particularly as you subscribe to subjective morality, mean as much as telling someone who thinks Hip Hop is the best genre of music, that country is the best genre. You have no real argument, just differing subjective opinions

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 12:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If all we have is subjective morality, then then the problem of evil, cannot be a logical contradiction.

No fucking shit. Without an Omni-god, there is no Problem of Evil.

(14-06-2016 12:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, you can ask the question all you want. I'm just pointing out that your criticism here, particularly as you subscribe to subjective morality, mean as much as telling someone who thinks Hip Hop is the best genre of music, that country is the best genre. You have no real argument, just differing subjective opinions

Yes, as you've stated ad nauseam. Drinking Beverage

And unless you're offering an argument for objective morality, your opinion is equally subjective.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 12:30 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  No fucking shit. Without an Omni-god, there is no Problem of Evil.

Even with an omni-god, there is no problem of evil, since according to you morality is subjective. Even if one imagines there own moral standards as objective, and that there God according to this standard is Good, it would just mean that the standard itself is being subjectively applied to their Omni-God.

You have a subjective standard of Good in which an Omni-God, and a reality in which suffering and evil exists, negates Goodness. While other's who subscribe to a different standard then you, don't see it as negating it.

They're are no more wrong or right in there moral assessments, as you are in yours. Since as you claimed, it's all subjective anyways, regardless if they believe it's objective.

Quote:And unless you're offering an argument for objective morality, your opinion is equally subjective.

Yes, and if my opinion is equally subjective, then what moral judgment I pass on X, hypothetical omni-god, or real omni-god, can't be anymore wrong, than being wrong about Indian food tasting better than Italian.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even with an omni-god, there is no problem of evil, since according to you morality is subjective.

The problem arises when theists assert that the Omni-god is a source of objective morality and then said Omni-god contradicts itself.

Holy Text Chapter 1: Omni-god says "thou shalt not kill"
Holy Text Chapter 2: Omni-god says "slay the unbeliever"

Something can't be wrong and not-wrong, isn't that how logic works?

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 01:32 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Holy Text Chapter 1: Omni-god says "thou shalt not kill"

Not sure, why anyone should read this rule as implying an absolute, when clearly the writers of that passage weren't some group of pacifist, who believe that taking a life was wrong, regardless of circumstance, such as self-defense, or in war, or a form of punitive execution. Judging that the latter was a norm reserved for a variety of offenders, it fairly evident that the writer of the rule, didn't have an absolute sense in mind.

Quote:Holy Text Chapter 2: Omni-god says "slay the unbeliever"
Something can't be wrong and not-wrong, isn't that how logic works?

Sure it can, when whats being implied by though shall not kill, is a rule prohibiting unjustified killing, while justified killing are not prohibited. Not sure why we the passage is to be read as an absolute.

Killing people for unjustified reasons is wrong, while killing them for justified reasons is not. Of course for you whats justified and unjustified is subjective as well, so it wouldn't matter.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not sure, why anyone should read this rule as implying an absolute, when clearly the writers of that passage weren't some group of pacifist, who believe that taking a life was wrong, regardless of circumstance, such as self-defense, or in war, or a form of punitive execution. Judging that the latter was a norm reserved for a variety of offenders, it fairly evident that the writer of the rule, didn't have an absolute sense in mind.

If you're going to engage in subjective interpretation of said biblical rule, then why even bother using the bible for anything?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-06-2016, 02:39 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 02:46 PM by SitaSky.)
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not sure, why anyone should read this rule as implying an absolute, when clearly the writers of that passage weren't some group of pacifist, who believe that taking a life was wrong, regardless of circumstance, such as self-defense, or in war, or a form of punitive execution. Judging that the latter was a norm reserved for a variety of offenders, it fairly evident that the writer of the rule, didn't have an absolute sense in mind.

The Bible makes it very clear that God's word is unchangeable, he can't sin so he can't lie and his word is absolute, he will judge all of us and our actions based on his objective moral laws:

“Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether is it good or evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14, NIV)

“Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom” (James 2:12, NIV).

“All His precepts are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8, NKJV)

“I am the LORD, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6, NKJV)

This is a quote from the site Answers in Genesis:

"The atheist argued that God’s standards are not binding on God Himself. But remember that God’s moral standard flows from His unchanging nature. Because God’s nature is perfect and holy, He cannot sin, so His standard is objective. It is impossible for God to contradict Himself or act inconsistently with His own nature."

As you can see it's an accepted concept that the nature of God is absolute and objective and good, we can argue all day long about subjective morality and perceptions but according to the Bible God is not good just because he says so , he's good because it is his nature and he can't change that so if he says "Kill your enemies because they worship false idols." that is an absolute good and if he says "Love your enemies." that is also an objective good act but it's contradicting the "Kill your enemies." part. it's a logical contradiction for an absolutely all good being to give two directly opposing laws to a group of people and the intention is for them to live morally according to his "truth".

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14-06-2016, 03:21 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 01:32 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Holy Text Chapter 1: Omni-god says "thou shalt not kill"

Not sure, why anyone should read this rule as implying an absolute, when clearly the writers of that passage weren't some group of pacifist, who believe that taking a life was wrong, regardless of circumstance, such as self-defense, or in war, or a form of punitive execution. Judging that the latter was a norm reserved for a variety of offenders, it fairly evident that the writer of the rule, didn't have an absolute sense in mind.

So, you're saying the Ten Commandments, the so-called cornerstone of morality should not be read as absolutes?

(14-06-2016 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Holy Text Chapter 2: Omni-god says "slay the unbeliever"
Something can't be wrong and not-wrong, isn't that how logic works?

Sure it can, when whats being implied by though shall not kill, is a rule prohibiting unjustified killing, while justified killing are not prohibited. Not sure why we the passage is to be read as an absolute.

Sounds alot like "subjective morality" doesn't it?

(14-06-2016 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Killing people for unjustified reasons is wrong, while killing them for justified reasons is not. Of course for you whats justified and unjustified is subjective as well, so it wouldn't matter.

We're not talking about me. We're talking about a basic contradiction in your supposed objective morality.

We're talking about an Omni-god contradicting itself, in the most basic terms.

The only question is whether or not you have the integrity to admit it.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(13-06-2016 02:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Can statements about what one considers morally Good, be factually incorrect? [...]

You can't conflate morals with facts. One is abstract and subjective; the other is established using empirical evidence and is objective.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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14-06-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 03:21 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
Quote:Sure it can, when whats being implied by though shall not kill, is a rule prohibiting unjustified killing, while justified killing are not prohibited. Not sure why we the passage is to be read as an absolute.

Sounds alot like "subjective morality" doesn't it?

No it's sound a lot like relative, not subjective. Relative to context, doesn't not negate objective morality, it does negate absolute morality. I.E an action is objectively wrong given a particular context, vs. an action is neither objectively right or wrong regardless of context.

Quote:We're talking about an Omni-god contradicting itself, in the most basic terms.

The only question is whether or not you have the integrity to admit it.

There is no contradiction for me, there only a difference in what you and I consider Good. Which according to you would be a subjective difference.

It's your subjective opinion that Omnigod, wouldn't allow evil to exist. This is not a factual statement, or an objective true. And I don't hold that view, nor I'm wrong for not holding it.

If you had the integrity you'd define what the contradiction is in believing in an Omnigod, in relationship to the existence of evil in the world. But you can't. Because is if morality regardless if one believes otherwise or not is subjective, no contradiction exists.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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