the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
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14-06-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 03:35 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 02:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Can statements about what one considers morally Good, be factually incorrect? [...]

You can't conflate morals with facts. One is abstract and subjective; the other is established using empirical evidence and is objective.

To claim a particular moral outlook is contradictory, i.e believe x is morally good, is a logical contradiction would require moral facts, an objective moral foundation, to be valid.

If believing X is morally good, is subjective, than it's can't be a contradiction. Because what is Good is whatever one subjectively believes is Good,

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-06-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
The Bible does not teach omni-benevolence.

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14-06-2016, 04:45 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 03:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you had the integrity you'd define what the contradiction is in believing in an Omnigod, in relationship to the existence of evil in the world. But you can't. Because is if morality regardless if one believes otherwise or not is subjective, no contradiction exists.

Don't lecture me about integrity. You just lied about the ten commandments. Or would you like to redefine "lie"? Drinking Beverage

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14-06-2016, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 05:34 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 09:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you not understand the concept of Hypocritical? What does what you or I say have anything to do with this scenario. If Yhwh has his subjective value judgement and breaks his own subjective value judgement multiple times in no hyper reasoning self defense means, is that not hypocritical? Does this being that does these things ever use the time to defend these scenarios as such? While it seemed no justification was needed actually.

I'm not the one who gave someone else rules nor are you. Are you arguing some other point in your head?

Is it hypocritical for parents to set a curfew on their children, yet not abide by a curfew themselves? Is it hypocritical for a government to allow military personal to have high powered weapons easily at their disposal, but not to their average citizen? Is hypocritical for governments to have the ability to declare war, but not the average citizen?

What rules are you referring to anyways? Are these rules to be understand as absolute? Are we to understand the rule that prohibits lying to be absolute, that it's always wrong to lie, regardless of situation? Within the context of the bible clearly not.

Secondly are you claims of moral abhorrence of the biblical God, based on the bible supposed standards of what is right and wrong, or based on your subjective, perhaps liberal humanistic standards?

Ignoring the facucious elements, but again.. what abhorrence or claims of what the nonsensical terms I don't think mean anything nor alluded to exist here? Like I said nothing Said here had any claims of what I think or you think.

Seriously, what words or statements are you seeing in your browser when you look at statements here?

Do you ever have the thought to question these own thoughts. You alone pulled up the absolute claim marking you see a difference. Just an assertion. Do you just still not give a shit widdling time away you give zero effort to ever put out an internal query to oneself about assertions?

This entire point of contradiction has literally nothing to do with ones judgement or subjective example of it but you are either so wrapped up in a view of it or just too bored to not make anything your pet view of oh that moral subjective bickering.

The point is simple this is hypocritical. Bob tells George don't do x, Bob tells George do x, then Bob tells George don't do x. In the middle George did x though when told too... it doesn't matter if it's absolute or not in statement. Bob still told George to not do x. So you think theses are not contradictions of Bob? Circumstances can be contradiction causes yes. There's no need moralizing, it's about a logical pattern of direction.

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14-06-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 03:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you had the integrity you'd define what the contradiction is in believing in an Omnigod, in relationship to the existence of evil in the world. But you can't. Because is if morality regardless if one believes otherwise or not is subjective, no contradiction exists.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? The contradiction exists because of the character of this supposed omni god.

If I told you I was writing a story about a perfect being who was all powerful, all good, all knowing and all truthful so they can't change and can't say anything unless it's the truth and they say "Oatmeal cookies are the best cookies." than that would be the absolute truth, this being can't lie, all they know is the objective, absolute truth since they are all knowing and all good there is no reason to disbelieve.

Subjectively you can disagree with them and say "No chocolate chips cookies are the best." but you're not a perfect being that can't lie or say anything that isn't the truth so it's just an opinion but when the perfect being says it, it's true, that's what the omni God is supposed to be.

Are you following this? I hope you're not confused but let's say this perfect omni God says "Don't kill, ever!" that's an absolute moral law, totally objective and we should abide by it since he will judge us according to it after we die. Later on if he says "You know what? Kill those people over there!" He has just contradicted his own law, his own absolute moral standard, see? He does this constantly throughout the bible.

Bible Contradictions

As far as the problem of evil existing while this supposedly perfect all good being exists is that he created our world, if he is perfect and he created everything than that means he created evil. An all good being can't create evil and being all powerful could destroy it easily. Even if you say "Well evil exists because of Adam and Eve or Satan." Well who created Adam and Eve and Satan? This "perfect" all good God right? How? Why? Once evil came to exist why didn't he just destroy it? If he's all good and he is literally in control of everything than that makes him flawed, and not all loving, thus the paradox.

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15-06-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 05:18 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point is simple this is hypocritical. Bob tells George don't do x, Bob tells George do x, then Bob tells George don't do x. In the middle George did x though when told too... it doesn't matter if it's absolute or not in statement. Bob still told George to not do x. So you think theses are not contradictions of Bob? Circumstances can be contradiction causes yes. There's no need moralizing, it's about a logical pattern of direction.

The variety of problems with this. A rule applied to George does not necessary apply to Bob. As stated on my example of parents imposing a curfew on their children, while not having to abide by that curfew themselves. This is not hypocritical or contradictory.

And secondly, ignoring what was said previously, when asking for examples, people point to commandment like though shall not kill. And then assume that commandment about stoning adulterers, capital punishment, taking someone's life in self defense, often found in the same chapter as the previous rule, indicate a contradiction. No it doesn't, the rule has never been composed or understand as an absolute dictate, clearly not by the communities in which such writing were addressed too. Just like when I teach my children that lying is wrong, I'm not telling them that if it was for the sake of saving someone life, that they shouldn't lie.

Either the command means though not kill under no circumstances whatsoever, or it means that shall not unjustly kill others.

You seem to be ignoring all this.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-06-2016, 06:35 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(14-06-2016 05:35 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  If you had the integrity you'd define what the contradiction is in believing in an Omnigod, in relationship to the existence of evil in the world. But you can't. Because is if morality regardless if one believes otherwise or not is subjective, no contradiction exists.

There is nothing contradictory about a belief in a omnigod and evil existing in the world.

Assume I'm not a christian, and I'm just a person who believe that omnigod exists, and acknowledges that evil exists in the world. The problem of evil explicitly claims that God cannot be perfectly Good, and allow evil to exist. Which as you all should acknowledge is not an objective fact, or logical truth. Since concepts like Good are subjective. And therefore no contradiction exists. I want atheists here to acknowledge this, where we're not speaking of specific omnigod, or on interpretation of the bible.

Quote:Why is this so hard for you to understand? The contradiction exists because of the character of this supposed omni god.

What's so difficult to understand that you and I likely don't have the same interpretation of the bible, the character of God in the bible, or passages on the bible.

Quote:If I told you I was writing a story about a perfect being who was all powerful, all good, all knowing and all truthful so they can't change and can't say anything unless it's the truth and they say "Oatmeal cookies are the best cookies." than that would be the absolute truth, this being can't lie, all they know is the objective, absolute truth since they are all knowing and all good there is no reason to disbelieve.

lol, Oatmeal cookies are the best tasting cookies wouldn't be an absolute truth, though the perfect being who stated it is not lying when he states it. He would be merely stating his own preference for cookies.

Quote:Subjectively you can disagree with them and say "No chocolate chips cookies are the best." but you're not a perfect being that can't lie or say anything that isn't the truth so it's just an opinion but when the perfect being says it, it's true, that's what the omni God is supposed to be.

I can acknowledge that of him Oatmeal cookies are the best tasting cookies, while he can acknowledge that for me chocolate chips are. We have differing cookie preferences.

Quote:I hope you're not confused but let's say this perfect omni God says "Don't kill, ever!" that's an absolute moral law, totally objective and we should abide by it since he will judge us according to it after we die. Later on if he says "You know what? Kill those people over there!" He has just contradicted his own law, his own absolute moral standard, see? He does this constantly throughout the bible.

Sure, except the actual commandment is not don't kill in any situation whatsoever, don't kill no matter the circumstances, self-defense, capital punishment, in war, etc.....
I'm not too sure why folks here seem to be suggesting it is to be understood as absolute, when it clearly wasn't, in consideration of the context.

The implication, whats being implied, and understood by most readers of the command, is don't kill unjustifiably.

Quote: An all good being can't create evil and being all powerful could destroy it easily.

Is that you subjective opinion? Is that a factual statement? A logical truth?

It's your subjective opinion.

If I stated that all Good being can create a world in which evil exists. I'm no more wrong than you are right. Judging the the concept of all Good is being deemed as subjective, we would just be having differing subjective opinions.

In you subjective standard of all Good, allowing evil to exists negates that. In mine it doesn't.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-06-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 06:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The implication, whats being implied, and understood by most readers of the command, is don't kill unjustifiably.

Like killing babies in the flood or innocent Amalekites or visiting the sins of the father up to 4 generations, etc.

So if God commands something, it's good by default and we're just pitiful mortals that don't understand his "higher ways".

You disregard all moral judgement and reason at that point, you become morally indistinguishable from a terrorist that simply follows god's commands.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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15-06-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 06:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Assume I'm not a christian, and I'm just a person who believe that omnigod exists, and acknowledges that evil exists in the world.

I did.

(14-06-2016 01:32 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The problem arises when theists assert that the Omni-god is a source of objective morality and then said Omni-god contradicts itself.

Holy Text Chapter 1: Omni-god says "thou shalt not kill"
Holy Text Chapter 2: Omni-god says "slay the unbeliever"

Something can't be wrong and not-wrong, isn't that how logic works?

Did I say "christian god"? Did I say "bible"?

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15-06-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: the contradiction of the all powerful and good god
(15-06-2016 07:06 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Like killing babies in the flood or innocent Amalekites or visiting the sins of the father up to 4 generations, etc.

So if God commands something, it's good by default and we're just pitiful mortals that don't understand his "higher ways".

No, we just subjectively judge it as good or not. Since you and others here are quick to remind us morality is subjective.

You may think it's subjectively bad for the God of the bible to order and do what he supposedly did in the stories about him. But that's just your subjective opinion.

Quote:You disregard all moral judgement and reason at that point, you become morally indistinguishable from a terrorist that simply follows god's commands.

No I treat all your moral judgements and reason, as you state they are, i.e as subjective.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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