the sacrificial lamb
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23-12-2013, 11:40 AM
the sacrificial lamb
I have stated that I despise the idea that I don't like and reject the idea that I am damned for things I have no control over, had no choice in. I wanted to address one other point for this, the sacrificing of Jesus.

Disclaimer: I don't think it happened in real life. I concede that there MIGHT have been a Jesus, but I don't think the biblical account of his execution actually happened in the real world. I'm speaking of this on a philosophical/theological level.

Let's throw out the doctrine of original sin, for the moment, not because it's not relevant but because I think I've beaten that dead horse enough. The basic doctrine is that I am a sinner, I have worked against God in my thoughts and actions. I have done wrong. I am guilty. We'll assume that I accept this.

Now I have no problem with the idea that people do bad things. It is true that people do lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, and generally treat each other not like we are all human beings but like we are all strange cats trapped in a box. I find it sickening, and the observation of it has led to a general sense of cynicism in me. Now I believe that a person is responsible for their own crimes and actions, and that each person must pay for their own crimes. I believe that each person CAN pay for their own crimes. If I do something wrong I stand up and take personal responsibility for it and take what comes from that. Once the crime has been paid for, we move forward from there.

Christianity says that I am unable to fully pay for these crimes, either they are too great or whatever. So in order to pay for the crimes of me and of all other persons I must sacrifice a man who did nothing wrong. Christ is offered up to God and his suffering is meant as payment for all the crimes which we have all committed. Because this is so mind-boggling I will state it again: we can not (or will not) pay for our own crimes and faults so we put forth another man who did nothing wrong to pay for our own crimes and expect that it wipes the slate clean. In essence this is like if a child steals a pack of gum from a store owner then allows their brother to take the blame for it and expects that the slate is wiped clean and their own theft is now forgiven.

I hold morality as internal. The highest moral obligation I have is to myself. I do not steal not because I respect the store owner (I might or might not) but because of my own self-respect. The child who has stolen still knows that they have done wrong, they have to go around knowing that they have done wrong and knowing they haven't paid for it. They must go on with this knowledge and worse, knowing they caused the pain of their brother through lies or through passivity. I understand that this might not bother some but to me this would be a type of torture in itself. To go through my life knowing I was unable or unwilling to pay for my own actions. I can't believe this and maintain my pride or self-esteem.

There is also the call for human sacrifice. I will state that the instigation of force against another human being is unforgivable. This man was tortured, horribly, and killed for crimes he did not commit. This man was innocent of any wrongdoing. he is denied his basic right of existence, of his right to preserve his own life. I find this idea monstrous. The idea that in order to be moral a person must give up everything that is good for them, to do exactly the thing that will harm them. Now doing this by force is horrendous, but the idea of expecting it to be done voluntarily is the kind of horror that I can't fathom.

I'm not articulating this very well, but try to see my point. The basic premise here is revolting. That in order to pay for our own crimes we strip another human being of their rights and offer them to take the fall. I don't accept this as justice. I don't see this as mercy. I simply cannot fathom how this is put up as a point of reverence.
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23-12-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
It's not. It just ties into the weird, creepy sacrifice motif the Jews loved. Of course, Jesus' death wasn't much of a sacrifice, given that he came back from the dead and is in heaven now, but whatever.
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23-12-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 01:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's not. It just ties into the weird, creepy sacrifice motif the Jews loved. Of course, Jesus' death wasn't much of a sacrifice, given that he came back from the dead and is in heaven now, but whatever.
What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice. If later you will be rewarded by other things your action still is called "sacrifice".
Jesus Christ didn't want to take our sins upon Himself but He did it anyway.
Do you know what it means - to take sins of others upon yourself?

English is not my native language.
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23-12-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
@OP - I can't say for sure, but I think your position may partly be what Paul had in mind when he spoke of "the offense of the cross" in Galatians 5.
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23-12-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 11:40 AM)natachan Wrote:  The basic premise here is revolting. That in order to pay for our own crimes we strip another human being of their rights and offer them to take the fall. I don't accept this as justice. I don't see this as mercy. I simply cannot fathom how this is put up as a point of reverence.
If I commit sin/sins and get punished it will be Justice. Penalty for sin is death or hell. THERE IS NO OTHER PUNISHMENT. DO NOT EXIST. So, in order to have Justice I have to die and be dead/in hell FOREVER. That's it. Finita la comedia.

If I commit sin and not get punishment(death/hell forever) but will be forgiven it will be Mercy. But were is Justice?
So, if God forgives me then it will never be Justice. If God punishes me I will die/be in hell forever then it will never be Mercy.
Atonement is answer to sutisfice Justice and Mercy.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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23-12-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
Quote:What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice.

Sacrifice is, by definition, the giving up of one value for a lesser value. If I decide to give money to a soup kitchen instead of buying a new game, it is not a sacrifice if a value to soup kitchen and their work more than the game.

Quote:If I commit sin/sins and get punished it will be Justice. Penalty for sin is death or hell. THERE IS NO OTHER PUNISHMENT. DO NOT EXIST. So, in order to have Justice I have to die and be dead/in hell FOREVER. That's it. Finita la comedia.

Justice demands equal payment. It is not equal payment to punish a man who steals a dime with eternal pain.
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23-12-2013, 04:29 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 01:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's not. It just ties into the weird, creepy sacrifice motif the Jews loved. Of course, Jesus' death wasn't much of a sacrifice, given that he came back from the dead and is in heaven now, but whatever.
What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice. If later you will be rewarded by other things your action still is called "sacrifice".
Jesus Christ didn't want to take our sins upon Himself but He did it anyway.
Do you know what it means - to take sins of others upon yourself?

The concept is actually obscene. Vicarious atonement is an attempt to shift responsibility to another, and if you think it makes ethical sense, you are morally crippled.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-12-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
If Jesus' claim was actually true—that he WAS God—then the whole sacrifice idea goes out the window. How can a god claim to be immortal, and yet also die? That's a contradiction. And if he DID die, he came back a day and a half later anyway (Friday night to Sunday morning) doing just fine. It's like he had a hangover and took a day off, no big whoop.
And THIS is the big sacrifice that absolves everyone of sins that God gave them in the first place.

Show me a guy spending an eternity in agonizing pain just to save me from my "evil" deeds, and I would consider that to be a sacrifice.

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23-12-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 04:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  ... Vicarious atonement is an attempt to shift responsibility to another,

This is not what Atonement does
Nobody takes responsibility from anybody. Every person will stay before God and will be judged according to his/her works.

English is not my native language.
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23-12-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 05:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  Every person will stay before God and will be judged according to his/her works.

I am unconvinced that god exists; therefore, I am likewise unconcerned about confronting him in an afterlife if by chance he does exist. If I was to stand before him after death, I would state that he should have done a better job of convincing me of his existence and that he can send me to hell if that is his evil will.
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