the sacrificial lamb
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23-12-2013, 06:13 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2013 06:17 PM by Alla.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 05:22 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  If Jesus' claim was actually true—that he WAS God—then the whole sacrifice idea goes out the window. How can a god claim to be immortal, and yet also die? That's a contradiction.
God Son died here on Earth not God Father.
Spirit is immortal. Jesus's spirit never died. It lived while His physical body was in the tomb.

(23-12-2013 05:22 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  And if he DID die, he came back a day and a half later anyway (Friday night to Sunday morning) doing just fine. It's like he had a hangover and took a day off, no big whoop.
And THIS is the big sacrifice that absolves everyone of sins that God gave them in the first place.
Show me a guy spending an eternity in agonizing pain just to save me from my "evil" deeds, and I would consider that to be a sacrifice.
That is what exactly happened in Gethsemane. IINFINITE Atonement happened over there. That hour turned to eternity(long, long time) when He suffered all imaginable and not imaginable pains.
What is Atonement(Sacrifice)? It is when Jesus Christ felt every pain(physical and emotional) that you felt, feel and will feel. He had every temptation you had, have and will have. Remember those times when you were very sick and felt pain. He felt all this. Imagine every temptation you couldn't resist. He had them and resisted.
And now multiply it by EVERY person that ever lived, live and will ever live on Earth. He went through all that. He knows EVERY pain that exist in the world.
He knows what cancer pain feels like, what chemo pain feels like, what burning in the fire feels like, what being cut by knife feels like. What means to be killed by a bomb, or how it feels to fall from the 99th floor.
He felt every temptation to commit sin and RESISTED. Nobody can do it. He did it.
And what for apostles was one hour in Gethsemane for Him it was almost eternity.

Atonement is not taking away responsibility from us. It is something different.
It gives OPPORTUNITY for BOTH - Justice(take responsibility) and Mercy.
Everybody will pay for their sins. But without Atonement can not be Mercy.
I bet you don't understand how.

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23-12-2013, 06:17 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 05:22 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  If Jesus' claim was actually true—that he WAS God—then the whole sacrifice idea goes out the window. How can a god claim to be immortal, and yet also die? That's a contradiction.
God Son died here on Earth not God Father.
Spirit is immortal. Jesus's spirit never died. It lived while His physical body was in the tomb.

(23-12-2013 05:22 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  And if he DID die, he came back a day and a half later anyway (Friday night to Sunday morning) doing just fine. It's like he had a hangover and took a day off, no big whoop.
And THIS is the big sacrifice that absolves everyone of sins that God gave them in the first place.
Show me a guy spending an eternity in agonizing pain just to save me from my "evil" deeds, and I would consider that to be a sacrifice.
That is what exactly happened in Gethsemane. IINFINITE Atonement happened over there. That hour turned to eternity(long, long time) when He suffered all imaginable and not imaginable pains.
What is Atonement(Sacrifice)? It is when Jesus Christ felt every pain(physical and emotional) that you felt, feel and will feel. He had every temptation you had, have and will have. Remember those times when you were very sick and felt pain. He felt all these. Imagine every temptation you couldn't resist. He had them and resisted.
And now multiply it by EVERY person that ever lived, live and will ever live on Earth. He went through all that. He knows EVERY pain that exist in the world.
He knows what cancer pain fells like, what chemo pain feels like, what burning in the fire feels like, what being cut by knife feels like. What means to be killed by a bomb, or how it feels to fall from the 99th floor.
He felt every temptation to commit sin and RESISTED. Nobody can do it. He did it.
And what for apostles was one hour in Gethsemane for Him it was almost eternity.

Atonement is not taking away responsibility from us. It is something different.
It gives OPPORTUNITY for BOTH - Justice(take responsibility) and Mercy.
Everybody will pay for their sins. But without Atonement can not be Mercy.
I bet you don't understand how.

You are just making this up again. How on earth is a sheepherder thousands of years ago supposed to understand the pain of Chemo?

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23-12-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 06:17 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  God Son died here on Earth not God Father.
Spirit is immortal. Jesus's spirit never died. It lived while His physical body was in the tomb.

That is what exactly happened in Gethsemane. IINFINITE Atonement happened over there. That hour turned to eternity(long, long time) when He suffered all imaginable and not imaginable pains.
What is Atonement(Sacrifice)? It is when Jesus Christ felt every pain(physical and emotional) that you felt, feel and will feel. He had every temptation you had, have and will have. Remember those times when you were very sick and felt pain. He felt all these. Imagine every temptation you couldn't resist. He had them and resisted.
And now multiply it by EVERY person that ever lived, live and will ever live on Earth. He went through all that. He knows EVERY pain that exist in the world.
He knows what cancer pain fells like, what chemo pain feels like, what burning in the fire feels like, what being cut by knife feels like. What means to be killed by a bomb, or how it feels to fall from the 99th floor.
He felt every temptation to commit sin and RESISTED. Nobody can do it. He did it.
And what for apostles was one hour in Gethsemane for Him it was almost eternity.

Atonement is not taking away responsibility from us. It is something different.
It gives OPPORTUNITY for BOTH - Justice(take responsibility) and Mercy.
Everybody will pay for their sins. But without Atonement can not be Mercy.
I bet you don't understand how.

You are just making this up again. How on earth is a sheepherder thousands of years ago supposed to understand the pain of Chemo?
Only Jesus was subject to this pain. Pains of chemo existed long before this Earth was organized. Jesus went through all pains that exist.

English is not my native language.
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23-12-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
Remember that according to their absurd belief Christ and the Father are one, so technically God isn't scapegoating since he is sacrificing himself, even though Jesus cried out my god, my god...

All of this shows how ridiculous the trinity is. The trinity was a compromise position in the early church between that of Ebionites: Jesus was not divine but only appointed, since there can be only one god, the father; the Marcionites: two gods, Jesus is a separate god from the OT god; Gnostics: Jesus was a human temporarily embodied by a divine being (which is why he cries out when the divine leaves him). All of these held sway in the early church. The trinity and hypostatic union were weird amalgams of these beliefs.
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23-12-2013, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2013 07:25 PM by Alla.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 06:27 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Remember that according to their absurd belief Christ and the Father are one, so technically God isn't scapegoating since he is sacrificing himself, even though Jesus cried out my god, my god...

All of this shows how ridiculous the trinity is. The trinity was a compromise position in the early church between that of Ebionites: Jesus was not divine but only appointed, since there can be only one god, the father; the Marcionites: two gods, Jesus is a separate god from the OT god; Gnostics: Jesus was a human temporarily embodied by a divine being (which is why he cries out when the divine leaves him). All of these held sway in the early church. The trinity and hypostatic union were weird amalgams of these beliefs.
It is not absurd to say that God Father and God Son are one.
Jesus said to His followers to be one as Father and Him are one.
Did He tell them to be one person?
Father and Son and Holy Ghost are one in purpose.
One God = one Union of three separate Gods.
P.S. Gnostics were right that they are 2 Gods. But they were wrong that Jesus is separate God from OT God. God Yahweh is OT God. Yahweh = God Son and not God Father Elohim.

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23-12-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 05:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 04:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  ... Vicarious atonement is an attempt to shift responsibility to another,

This is not what Atonement does
Nobody takes responsibility from anybody. Every person will stay before God and will be judged according to his/her works.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That is what I am referring to.

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23-12-2013, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2013 07:43 PM by Alla.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 07:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 05:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  This is not what Atonement does
Nobody takes responsibility from anybody. Every person will stay before God and will be judged according to his/her works.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That is what I am referring to.
Where does it say that taking away sin of the world = taking away personal responsibility?
What sin was John talking about? A: Adam's sin

Jesus took sin of Adam because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin. And Adam is not responsible for that sin. It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.
And Adam didn't know that break the law = bad/wrong/evil/sin.
God doesn't punish for being ignorant.

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23-12-2013, 07:47 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.

Wow, speak of reaching and interpreting to suit one's ideals.

Clearly, from reading the bible, it was not god's plan for Adam to fall. Just as god had no clue his precious lucifer would dissent. Your god is not all-knowing. Omniscience seems to have been an attribute added whereby the writers of the bible were not careful as to what they were creating. There is much proof of such blunders throughout the bible. If god was all-knowing, he would not have created lucifer in the first place. If god was all-knowing, he would not have created Adam in the first place.

(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  God doesn't punish for being ignorant.

Clearly, he does, for Adam was thrown out of Eden.
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23-12-2013, 07:59 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 07:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.

Wow, speak of reaching and interpreting to suit one's ideals.

Clearly, from reading the bible, it was not god's plan for Adam to fall.
Is it written in the Bible? or is it your opinion?

(23-12-2013 07:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  Just as god had no clue his precious lucifer would dissent. Your god is not all-knowing. Omniscience seems to have been an attribute added whereby the writers of the bible were not careful as to what they were creating. There is much proof of such blunders throughout the bible. If god was all-knowing, he would not have created lucifer in the first place. If god was all-knowing, he would not have created Adam in the first place.
God doesn't have plan A and plan B in case if plan A doesn't work.
Everything what happened in the Garden of Eden was plan of God.


(23-12-2013 07:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  God doesn't punish for being ignorant.

Clearly, he does, for Adam was thrown out of Eden.
It was not a punishment. It was a consequence. No unclean thing can be in presence of God. Adam could return to presence of God only AFTER the ATONEMENT.
Blood of Christ cleaned Adam from that sin. Now Adam is in heaven as resurrected being.
Why didn't God let Adam to partake of the fruit of the tree of life? A: If God let him to do this then Adam would LIVE FOREVER IN HIS SIN. And to live forever in your sins = hell.
God saved Adam from hell. After Fall Adam had to be tested = live by faith and be saved by Messiah. Only after Jesus atoned for Adam's sin Adam could be resurrected and because he lived righteous life he is in heaven now.

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23-12-2013, 08:01 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 07:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  One God = one Union of three separate Gods.
So you're a polytheist, not a trinitarian. I'm cool with that.
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