the sacrificial lamb
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-12-2013, 10:12 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 08:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Where does it say that taking away sin of the world = taking away personal responsibility?
What sin was John talking about? A: Adam's sin

Jesus took sin of Adam because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin. And Adam is not responsible for that sin. It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.
And Adam didn't know that break the law = bad/wrong/evil/sin.
God doesn't punish for being ignorant.

And that 'explanation' is totally incoherent.

I'm waiting for the flow chart on that. Probably looks like the Gordian Knot with a dash of 3-day old spaghetti.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-12-2013, 03:03 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 08:23 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 01:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's not. It just ties into the weird, creepy sacrifice motif the Jews loved. Of course, Jesus' death wasn't much of a sacrifice, given that he came back from the dead and is in heaven now, but whatever.
What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice. If later you will be rewarded by other things your action still is called "sacrifice".
Jesus Christ didn't want to take our sins upon Himself but He did it anyway.
Do you know what it means - to take sins of others upon yourself?

Why is it that theists treat 'sin' as a trade-able commodity, something that can be moved around from person to person like trading stocks? Moral accountability doesn't work that way, which is why it's not the same as sin. Sin is simply pissing off the boss, going against his wishes, regardless of ethics or morality. There is nothing inherently immoral about doing work on Saturday, eating shellfish, or having sex before marriage; they are however all 'sins'. Likewise 'sin' appears to be transferable, how awesome is that? Not only that, but it's not detectable or verifiable at all, anymore so than a person's 'aura' or 'karma'.

But apparently a long weekend in Hell, followed by co-dictatorship of all of creation, is considered an adequate 'sacrifice' to take away all 'sin'. Remember however that 'sin' is not moral accountability; so remind me again why god can't simply forgive people personally pissing him off rather than the whole human murder bit? Isn't god powerful enough to simply forgive? It's just vicarious redemption (one of the most immoral ideas ever conceived) pilled upon baseless assertions. It's a mountain of bullshit.


(23-12-2013 03:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 11:40 AM)natachan Wrote:  The basic premise here is revolting. That in order to pay for our own crimes we strip another human being of their rights and offer them to take the fall. I don't accept this as justice. I don't see this as mercy. I simply cannot fathom how this is put up as a point of reverence.
If I commit sin/sins and get punished it will be Justice. Penalty for sin is death or hell. THERE IS NO OTHER PUNISHMENT. DO NOT EXIST. So, in order to have Justice I have to die and be dead/in hell FOREVER. That's it. Finita la comedia.

If I commit sin and not get punishment(death/hell forever) but will be forgiven it will be Mercy. But were is Justice?
So, if God forgives me then it will never be Justice. If God punishes me I will die/be in hell forever then it will never be Mercy.
Atonement is answer to sutisfice[sic] Justice and Mercy.

So your god lacks the power to simply forgive sin, or employ anything other than the 'all or nothing' approach? Why must your god use nuclear weapons to swat at flies?

Also, you need to learn what in the fucking hell Justice actually means.

Justice is to be fair and reasonable, to exact a punishment that exactly matches the crime. Mercy is to exact a punishment of less severity than the crime demands. Injustice is to exact a punishment far greater than the crime demands.

Now in light of Hell, a realm of eternal punishment, where does god's 'justice' fall? He's giving people eternal punishment for finite crimes by finite beings committed on a finite scale against other finite beings. Nothing a human could ever do would ever warrant any form of infinite punishment.

Therefore your god, and his hell, are the very epitome of injustice. Chew on that for a bit.



(23-12-2013 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 05:22 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  If Jesus' claim was actually true—that he WAS God—then the whole sacrifice idea goes out the window. How can a god claim to be immortal, and yet also die? That's a contradiction.
God Son died here on Earth not God Father.
Spirit is immortal. Jesus's spirit never died. It lived while His physical body was in the tomb.

Guess what then? If nothing of value was lost, then there was no sacrifice! The spirit simply lost it's shell, but it never stopped existing, and in being one with the essence of god the father it has the power to recreate a body for itself whenever it wishes to. It lost nothing. It was not a sacrifice, it was a shell game.



(23-12-2013 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 05:22 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  And if he DID die, he came back a day and a half later anyway (Friday night to Sunday morning) doing just fine. It's like he had a hangover and took a day off, no big whoop.
And THIS is the big sacrifice that absolves everyone of sins that God gave them in the first place.
Show me a guy spending an eternity in agonizing pain just to save me from my "evil" deeds, and I would consider that to be a sacrifice.
That is what exactly happened in Gethsemane. IINFINITE[sic] Atonement happened over there. That hour turned to eternity(long, long time) when He suffered all imaginable and not imaginable pains.
What is Atonement(Sacrifice)? It is when Jesus Christ felt every pain(physical and emotional) that you felt, feel and will feel. He had every temptation you had, have and will have. Remember those times when you were very sick and felt pain. He felt all this. Imagine every temptation you couldn't resist. He had them and resisted.
And now multiply it by EVERY person that ever lived, live and will ever live on Earth. He went through all that. He knows EVERY pain that exist in the world.
He knows what cancer pain feels like, what chemo pain feels like, what burning in the fire feels like, what being cut by knife feels like. What means to be killed by a bomb, or how it feels to fall from the 99th floor.
He felt every temptation to commit sin and RESISTED. Nobody can do it. He did it.
And what for apostles was one hour in Gethsemane for Him it was almost eternity.

Atonement is not taking away responsibility from us. It is something different.
It gives OPPORTUNITY for BOTH - Justice(take responsibility) and Mercy.
Everybody will pay for their sins. But without Atonement can not be Mercy.
I bet you don't understand how.

Citation Needed.

We don't understand how? Motherfucker, neither do you! You just make shit up and fool yourself into thinking that you know, but you don't. The difference here is that us atheists don't pretend to know things by simply making them up out of our imaginations. Assertions without evidence are meaningless, and that's all you have; assertions without evidence.

Because if you can't show it, then you don't know it; and you need to stop pretending like you do. All you've show is that you can use your imagination to make some shit up that looks like it works within your imaginary rule-set of your particular interpretation of your particular cult. But without evidence, without being able to show any of what you said is factually accurate; it's all just smoke and mirrors and bullshit. Piles and piles of presuppositional bullshit...



(23-12-2013 07:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 06:27 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Remember that according to their absurd belief Christ and the Father are one, so technically God isn't scapegoating since he is sacrificing himself, even though Jesus cried out my god, my god...

All of this shows how ridiculous the trinity is. The trinity was a compromise position in the early church between that of Ebionites: Jesus was not divine but only appointed, since there can be only one god, the father; the Marcionites: two gods, Jesus is a separate god from the OT god; Gnostics: Jesus was a human temporarily embodied by a divine being (which is why he cries out when the divine leaves him). All of these held sway in the early church. The trinity and hypostatic union were weird amalgams of these beliefs.
It is not absurd to say that God Father and God Son are one.
Jesus said to His followers to be one as Father and Him are one.
Did He tell them to be one person?
Father and Son and Holy Ghost are one in purpose.
One God = one Union of three separate Gods.
P.S. Gnostics were right that they are 2 Gods. But they were wrong that Jesus is separate God from OT God. God Yahweh is OT God. Yahweh = God Son and not God Father Elohim.


So Jesus is God Son, Yahweh is God Son, so Jesus is Yahweh. Simple logic here, A = C, B = C, so A = B. So that means Jesus was the immoral fuck who (supposedly) drowned the whole world, demanded the slaughter of innocent women and children, and most other atrocities and war crimes found in the Old Testament.

Also, what evidence do you have that the Gnostics were right, and not simply making shit up like every other religion on the face of the planet for all time?

So, you're a Muslim then? The only time I've ever heard anything similar to this is when Muslims need to take Christianity and Jesus down a peg to make room for Muhammad.



(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 07:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That is what I am referring to.
Where does it say that taking away sin of the world = taking away personal responsibility?
What sin was John talking about? A: Adam's sin

Jesus took sin of Adam because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin. And Adam is not responsible for that sin. It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.
And Adam didn't know that break the law = bad/wrong/evil/sin.
God doesn't punish for being ignorant.

Where does John specifically say that it was just Adam's sin? See, this is another example of you inserting things into the text that they simply do not say.

So if you'd kindly stop making shit up and attempting to pass it off as knowledge (instead of the made up bullshit that it is), it would be greatly appreciated. Drinking Beverage

Also, if nobody is responsible for the 'sin' of Adam, why in the fucking hell did Jesus take that 'sin' upon himself? Your first sentence, bullshit that it is, doesn't even make any sense within your own baseless assertions! also, if Adam is not responsible, then whoever tricked him is. The person who put the whole plan into motion and deceiver Adam, is god; that means god committed sin.

So I'm sure your god is going to confine himself to his own hell to atone for his own sins to himself, right? I mean, he doesn't appear to have the power to simply forgive himself, right? He still needs a sacrifice right? Because if he could just forgive himself, why not forgive humanity as well? Why the whole bullshit dog and pony show?

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like EvolutionKills's post
24-12-2013, 08:46 AM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
There are other things that bother me about the premise. It's been stated that the only payment for sin, any sin, is eternal torment. This is not justice. Justice is equal payment. I can't think of a single crime that would justify eternal torment, and I have tried. Eternity is a very VERY long time.

But then the book of job tells us god doesn't have to be just.

Also, lets assume I do believe that one person can pay for another's crime. If Jesus is god and immortal, he suffered greatly but only briefly. Then he's better than before. This isn't sacrifice and its not equal payment.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-12-2013, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 09:13 AM by Vlad.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(24-12-2013 03:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice. If later you will be rewarded by other things your action still is called "sacrifice".
Jesus Christ didn't want to take our sins upon Himself but He did it anyway.
Do you know what it means - to take sins of others upon yourself?

Why is it that theists treat 'sin' as a trade-able commodity, something that can be moved around from person to person like trading stocks? Moral accountability doesn't work that way, which is why it's not the same as sin. Sin is simply pissing off the boss, going against his wishes, regardless of ethics or morality. There is nothing inherently immoral about doing work on Saturday, eating shellfish, or having sex before marriage; they are however all 'sins'. Likewise 'sin' appears to be transferable, how awesome is that? Not only that, but it's not detectable or verifiable at all, anymore so than a person's 'aura' or 'karma'.

But apparently a long weekend in Hell, followed by co-dictatorship of all of creation, is considered an adequate 'sacrifice' to take away all 'sin'. Remember however that 'sin' is not moral accountability; so remind me again why god can't simply forgive people personally pissing him off rather than the whole human murder bit? Isn't god powerful enough to simply forgive? It's just vicarious redemption (one of the most immoral ideas ever conceived) pilled upon baseless assertions. It's a mountain of bullshit.


(23-12-2013 03:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I commit sin/sins and get punished it will be Justice. Penalty for sin is death or hell. THERE IS NO OTHER PUNISHMENT. DO NOT EXIST. So, in order to have Justice I have to die and be dead/in hell FOREVER. That's it. Finita la comedia.

If I commit sin and not get punishment(death/hell forever) but will be forgiven it will be Mercy. But were is Justice?
So, if God forgives me then it will never be Justice. If God punishes me I will die/be in hell forever then it will never be Mercy.
Atonement is answer to sutisfice[sic] Justice and Mercy.

So your god lacks the power to simply forgive sin, or employ anything other than the 'all or nothing' approach? Why must your god use nuclear weapons to swat at flies?

Also, you need to learn what in the fucking hell Justice actually means.

Justice is to be fair and reasonable, to exact a punishment that exactly matches the crime. Mercy is to exact a punishment of less severity than the crime demands. Injustice is to exact a punishment far greater than the crime demands.

Now in light of Hell, a realm of eternal punishment, where does god's 'justice' fall? He's giving people eternal punishment for finite crimes by finite beings committed on a finite scale against other finite beings. Nothing a human could ever do would ever warrant any form of infinite punishment.

Therefore your god, and his hell, are the very epitome of injustice. Chew on that for a bit.



(23-12-2013 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  God Son died here on Earth not God Father.
Spirit is immortal. Jesus's spirit never died. It lived while His physical body was in the tomb.

Guess what then? If nothing of value was lost, then there was no sacrifice! The spirit simply lost it's shell, but it never stopped existing, and in being one with the essence of god the father it has the power to recreate a body for itself whenever it wishes to. It lost nothing. It was not a sacrifice, it was a shell game.



(23-12-2013 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  That is what exactly happened in Gethsemane. IINFINITE[sic] Atonement happened over there. That hour turned to eternity(long, long time) when He suffered all imaginable and not imaginable pains.
What is Atonement(Sacrifice)? It is when Jesus Christ felt every pain(physical and emotional) that you felt, feel and will feel. He had every temptation you had, have and will have. Remember those times when you were very sick and felt pain. He felt all this. Imagine every temptation you couldn't resist. He had them and resisted.
And now multiply it by EVERY person that ever lived, live and will ever live on Earth. He went through all that. He knows EVERY pain that exist in the world.
He knows what cancer pain feels like, what chemo pain feels like, what burning in the fire feels like, what being cut by knife feels like. What means to be killed by a bomb, or how it feels to fall from the 99th floor.
He felt every temptation to commit sin and RESISTED. Nobody can do it. He did it.
And what for apostles was one hour in Gethsemane for Him it was almost eternity.

Atonement is not taking away responsibility from us. It is something different.
It gives OPPORTUNITY for BOTH - Justice(take responsibility) and Mercy.
Everybody will pay for their sins. But without Atonement can not be Mercy.
I bet you don't understand how.

Citation Needed.

We don't understand how? Motherfucker, neither do you! You just make shit up and fool yourself into thinking that you know, but you don't. The difference here is that us atheists don't pretend to know things by simply making them up out of our imaginations. Assertions without evidence are meaningless, and that's all you have; assertions without evidence.

Because if you can't show it, then you don't know it; and you need to stop pretending like you do. All you've show is that you can use your imagination to make some shit up that looks like it works within your imaginary rule-set of your particular interpretation of your particular cult. But without evidence, without being able to show any of what you said is factually accurate; it's all just smoke and mirrors and bullshit. Piles and piles of presuppositional bullshit...



(23-12-2013 07:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is not absurd to say that God Father and God Son are one.
Jesus said to His followers to be one as Father and Him are one.
Did He tell them to be one person?
Father and Son and Holy Ghost are one in purpose.
One God = one Union of three separate Gods.
P.S. Gnostics were right that they are 2 Gods. But they were wrong that Jesus is separate God from OT God. God Yahweh is OT God. Yahweh = God Son and not God Father Elohim.


So Jesus is God Son, Yahweh is God Son, so Jesus is Yahweh. Simple logic here, A = C, B = C, so A = B. So that means Jesus was the immoral fuck who (supposedly) drowned the whole world, demanded the slaughter of innocent women and children, and most other atrocities and war crimes found in the Old Testament.

Also, what evidence do you have that the Gnostics were right, and not simply making shit up like every other religion on the face of the planet for all time?

So, you're a Muslim then? The only time I've ever heard anything similar to this is when Muslims need to take Christianity and Jesus down a peg to make room for Muhammad.



(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Where does it say that taking away sin of the world = taking away personal responsibility?
What sin was John talking about? A: Adam's sin

Jesus took sin of Adam because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin. And Adam is not responsible for that sin. It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.
And Adam didn't know that break the law = bad/wrong/evil/sin.
God doesn't punish for being ignorant.

Where does John specifically say that it was just Adam's sin? See, this is another example of you inserting things into the text that they simply do not say.

So if you'd kindly stop making shit up and attempting to pass it off as knowledge (instead of the made up bullshit that it is), it would be greatly appreciated. Drinking Beverage

Also, if nobody is responsible for the 'sin' of Adam, why in the fucking hell did Jesus take that 'sin' upon himself? Your first sentence, bullshit that it is, doesn't even make any sense within your own baseless assertions! also, if Adam is not responsible, then whoever tricked him is. The person who put the whole plan into motion and deceiver Adam, is god; that means god committed sin.

So I'm sure your god is going to confine himself to his own hell to atone for his own sins to himself, right? I mean, he doesn't appear to have the power to simply forgive himself, right? He still needs a sacrifice right? Because if he could just forgive himself, why not forgive humanity as well? Why the whole bullshit dog and pony show?
It's seriously mindblowing how people believe so strongly in their religion they can't understand something as simply as what you explained.

You know what? Lets leave god alone for a moment. What about the snake who fooled Eve, who in turn fooled Adam? Why does Adam's sin falls on humanity as a whole, but the snake's punishment is only to crowl on the ground and eat dirt (yeah right).

Also why is that Adam's sin? Why not Eve as well?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-12-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
Because women weren't really considered people.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-12-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
Who were Adam and Eve again? Were they from the Jurassic period?

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-12-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  There are other things that bother me about the premise. It's been stated that the only payment for sin, any sin, is eternal torment. This is not justice.
There are to kinds of death and 2 kinds of salvations and 2 kinds of eternal torments:
Physical death
People die physically because of Adam. But because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin that is why ALL people(no matter good or evil, theist or atheists) will be SAVED from physical death. This is first salvation. Bible says that because of one man Adam all people die, because of one man Christ all people will live again(Resurrection fro the dead).
So when Christ took sin of Adam upon Himself He didn't take from anybody responsibility to answer for their OWN sins.

Spiritual death:
because all people sin all people are dead spiritually. And everybody is responsible for their own wrong choices and will be rewarded for their right choices.
Because of Jesus it is possible to live again. And if we follow Jesus(live by His example) we can be forgiven for our sins and become more like Christ.
Our act - to be like Jesus will be rewarded - salvation from spiritual death.
Those who are not following Christ will not be saved from spiritual death. What does it mean? It means they can not obtain Celestial Glory. But they will obtain either Terrestrial Glory or Telestial Glory. Not to obtain Celestial Glory can be called eternal torment because it means someone can not see God any more and become like God. But Terrestrial and Telestial Glories are still Glories. Even bad people deserve Mercy and some kind of rewards. There is no just evil person or just good person. We all are a little bit of both.

(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  Justice is equal payment. I can't think of a single crime that would justify eternal torment, and I have tried. Eternity is a very VERY long time.
You are right. I explained everything above as shortly as possible.
"One hell, one heaven" doctrine is FALSE doctrine. People are not the same their deeds are not the same. There are 3 heavens. Even Paul mentioned third heaven.
And every heaven has different degrees of glory.
Even in Celestial Glory(place where Gods live) there are different rewards. Even Bible says that there are first and last in heaven.

(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  But then the book of job tells us god doesn't have to be just.
Where exactly does it tell us?

(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  Also, lets assume I do believe that one person can pay for another's crime. If Jesus is god and immortal, he suffered greatly but only briefly. Then he's better than before. This isn't sacrifice and its not equal payment.
He didn't suffer briefly. Bible says that with God one day as 1000 years and 1000 years as one day. God's reckoning of time is not men's reckoning of time. Time of Atonement in the garden of Gethsemane was not one hour of agony but almost eternity - very, very long time.
He didn't do it to have a reward. He didn't think about reward. He did because he loved us and had compassion for us.
When you do something out of love and compassion and not because you enjoy doing it/wish doing it - it calls sacrifice.
If somebody rewarded you for your sacrifice nobody says that your deed was not sacrifice.
If soldier sacrificed his health and got rewarded his action is still sacrifice.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-12-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(24-12-2013 09:09 AM)Vlad Wrote:  You know what? Lets leave god alone for a moment. What about the snake who fooled Eve, who in turn fooled Adam?
Snake didn't fool Eve 100% only 50%. Eve like that 50% of the TRUTH that she can become like Gods knowing good and evil. We know from the Bible that to be like God is one of the commandments and one of the RIGHTEOUS desires.
He only lied that she will not die.

(24-12-2013 09:09 AM)Vlad Wrote:  Why does Adam's sin falls on humanity as a whole, but the snake's punishment is only to crowl on the ground and eat dirt (yeah right).
because it is God's plan that we(His children) will be subjects to death and evil.

(24-12-2013 09:09 AM)Vlad Wrote:  Also why is that Adam's sin? Why not Eve as well?
Because Adam made a choice to follow Eve and HAVE CHILDREN with MORTAL woman. He chose to become mortal like her
Mortality is contagious, you knowSmile

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-12-2013, 12:58 AM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2013 07:11 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
God dammit Alla, could you stop posting this presuppositional shit? It's getting real tedious to have to keep shoveling it out of here.

(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  There are other things that bother me about the premise. It's been stated that the only payment for sin, any sin, is eternal torment. This is not justice.
There are to kinds of death and 2 kinds of salvations and 2 kinds of eternal torments:

Citation needed.


(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  Physical death
People die physically because of Adam. But because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin that is why ALL people(no matter good or evil, theist or atheists) will be SAVED from physical death. This is first salvation. Bible says that because of one man Adam all people die, because of one man Christ all people will live again(Resurrection fro the dead).
So when Christ took sin of Adam upon Himself He didn't take from anybody responsibility to answer for their OWN sins.

No, people die because our bodies deteriorate over time, because they are not designed to do otherwise. Assuming your god could, and indeed did, originaly make us otherwise; why did he let Adam fuck it up? Even allowing Adam to mess things up for himself, why not fix things back to the original 'perfection' for Adam's children? Surely they're not responsible for their father's fuck up, so how come they (and the rest of humanity) too are saddled with the same flawed body that Adam supposedly 'earned' for his transgression against god's infinite ego? See, even granting all of your presuppositions, your logic still fucking falls apart Alla...

Seriously, stop. Take a break, go sign up for a Logic 101 course at a community college nearby. After you've failed it a few times, maybe you'll finally start to get a handle on this thing we call 'logic' and 'reasoning'... Drinking Beverage



(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  Spiritual death:
because all people sin all people are dead spiritually. And everybody is responsible for their own wrong choices and will be rewarded for their right choices.
Because of Jesus it is possible to live again. And if we follow Jesus(live by His example) we can be forgiven for our sins and become more like Christ.
Our act - to be like Jesus will be rewarded - salvation from spiritual death.
Those who are not following Christ will not be saved from spiritual death. What does it mean? It means they can not obtain Celestial Glory. But they will obtain either Terrestrial Glory or Telestial[sic] Glory. Not to obtain Celestial Glory can be called eternal torment because it means someone can not see God any more and become like God. But Terrestrial and Telestial[sic] Glories are still Glories. Even bad people deserve Mercy and some kind of rewards. There is no just evil person or just good person. We all are a little bit of both.

Citation needed.

First, you need to substantiate the existence of both 'sin' and 'spirit'. What are they? What do they do? How much mass do they have? How do they interact with matter and each other? Plus, evidence to show how you can know any of this. Anything short of that is you simply pulling shit out of your ass and pretending it's knowledge.

But all of your bullshit boils down to, accepting Jesus as your personal cosmic scapegoat so that he can remove some evil undefined force from you, that is there because someone else a long time ago pissed in god's Wheaties. Great. So we're being damned for other's actions, and to save ourselves, we must have another take responsibility for our actions. It's nothing more than passing the buck. There is no moral accountability in this scenario. You are blamed for other's actions, and you can lay the responsibility for their actions and your own upon Jesus.

Yeah, how about no?


(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  Justice is equal payment. I can't think of a single crime that would justify eternal torment, and I have tried. Eternity is a very VERY long time.
You are right. I explained everything above as shortly as possible.
"One hell, one heaven" doctrine is FALSE doctrine. People are not the same their deeds are not the same. There are 3 heavens. Even Paul mentioned third heaven.
And every heaven has different degrees of glory.
Even in Celestial Glory(place where Gods live) there are different rewards. Even Bible says that there are first and last in heaven.

Citation needed.

Also please provide evidence for the existence of a realm or plane of existence that is only accessible after we die. No, quoting scripture is not evidence.



(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  But then the book of job tells us god doesn't have to be just.
Where exactly does it tell us?

With God's permission, the Adversary kills Job's children, destroys all of the man's possessions, and strikes Job with hideous diseases. The neighbors thing that these things must be happening because he deserves it. Elihu is angry at Job for concentrating on his own innocence rather than trying to justify why God had done this to him.

Moral of the story: God can, and indeed will, fuck around with people for the express purpose of fucking around with them; and fuck them if they even think to question why they are being fucked over so badly. You don't question the fucking boss!

How is that anything but an shining example of God's perfect justice? Weeping



(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 08:46 AM)natachan Wrote:  Also, lets assume I do believe that one person can pay for another's crime. If Jesus is god and immortal, he suffered greatly but only briefly. Then he's better than before. This isn't sacrifice and its not equal payment.
He didn't suffer briefly. Bible says that with God one day as 1000 years and 1000 years as one day. God's reckoning of time is not men's reckoning of time. Time of Atonement in the garden of Gethsemane was not one hour of agony but almost eternity - very, very long time.

That is one of the most underhanded convenient interpretations of a passage I've ever seen. You deserve some sort of award for an especially stunning level of mental gymnastics. Time is however long you want it to be, whenever it's convenient for you? Great, now justify it! How can we determine how long creation took in Genesis? Why is the time in the garden count as an eternity, but not his the three days he (supposedly) spent in Hell?

But you don't have a basis for determining when a day is actually a day, or when it means whatever in the hell you want it to mean. You're simply making shit up that is convenient for your particular interpretation, with no justification outside of your own desires to round off the square peg and make everything 'fit' for your personal theology.

So once again, kindly stop making shit up.



(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  He didn't do it to have a reward. He didn't think about reward. He did because he loved us and had compassion for us.

Who in the fuck died and made you Jesus? Are you psychic? Who in the hell are you to speak of the innermost thoughts, needs, wants, and desires of Jesus? Did he tell you these things personally? If so, what evidence do you have for claiming to know his internal monologue?

Oh, right, you're just making shit up again.


(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  When you do something out of love and compassion and not because you enjoy doing it/wish doing it - it calls sacrifice.
If somebody rewarded you for your sacrifice nobody says that your deed was not sacrifice.
If soldier sacrificed his health and got rewarded his action is still sacrifice.

A sacrifice requires you to lose something of value. What is three days in Hell to someone who is immortal and eternal? What is death to someone who is immortal? What is either to a god? They are nothing. Jesus lost nothing in dying, thus he sacrificed nothing. So even by the standards of sacrifice and vicarious redemption, Jesus fails spectacularly.


(24-12-2013 02:29 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 09:09 AM)Vlad Wrote:  You know what? Lets leave god alone for a moment. What about the snake who fooled Eve, who in turn fooled Adam?
Snake didn't fool Eve 100% only 50%. Eve like that 50% of the TRUTH that she can become like Gods knowing good and evil. We know from the Bible that to be like God is one of the commandments and one of the RIGHTEOUS desires.
He only lied that she will not die.

So God created a pair of ignorant puppets, and gives them rules but no instruction. So they have a list of things not to do, but don't know why they shouldn't. The snake upon seeing a set of mind slaves, offers to bring them out of ignorance by encouraging them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Upon seeing this (which God of course knew would happen because of his omniscience) he begins to flip shit as part of his divine plan.

And you wonder why people don't find this even remotely plausible?


(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 09:09 AM)Vlad Wrote:  Why does Adam's sin falls on humanity as a whole, but the snake's punishment is only to crowl on the ground and eat dirt (yeah right).
because it is God's plan that we(His children) will be subjects to death and evil.

Right, so instead of just doing that in the first place, God decided to concoct an elaborate Rube Goldberg mechanism involving manipulating Adam and Eve and playing on their designed ignorance.

Seems legit... Weeping


(24-12-2013 02:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 09:09 AM)Vlad Wrote:  Also why is that Adam's sin? Why not Eve as well?
Because Adam made a choice to follow Eve and HAVE CHILDREN with MORTAL woman. He chose to become mortal like her
Mortality is contagious, you knowSmile

Yes, because he had other immortal options besides Eve? Maybe he should have had sex with Lilltih, or how about Eve's (undocumented) immortal sister Angela? Oh wait, am I not allowed to make shit up too?

Also, God lied.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam die on the day he ate from the tree? Nope, he lived on for centuries later. Oh wait, this is going to be another of of those 'a day actually means however long I need it to mean to make my story work' instances, isn't it?

Checkmate Atheists! Weeping

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
25-12-2013, 02:57 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 01:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's not. It just ties into the weird, creepy sacrifice motif the Jews loved. Of course, Jesus' death wasn't much of a sacrifice, given that he came back from the dead and is in heaven now, but whatever.
What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice. If later you will be rewarded by other things your action still is called "sacrifice".
Jesus Christ didn't want to take our sins upon Himself but He did it anyway.
Do you know what it means - to take sins of others upon yourself?

Alla. Jesus sacrifice is a joke. It is actually amazing that a relatively big minority of humans living today are touched or impressed by that.

Even if we take those nice fairies at face value, we would see tht Jesus knew on advance that He will come back in full glory, sitting at the right of the Father, and eventually, come back with swords coming out of his eyes, or other equivalent nonsense.

So, if I were God and knew everything in advance, like Jesus according to the legend, I would have no problem to take the sins of everybody upon myself, whatsoever. Would you? Big deal.


Ciao

- viole
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: