the sacrificial lamb
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25-12-2013, 05:21 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(25-12-2013 12:58 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, God lied.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam die on the day he ate from the tree? Nope, he lived on for centuries later. Oh wait, this is going to be another of of those 'a day actually means however long I need it to mean to make my story work' instances, isn't it?

Checkmate Atheists! Weeping
Adam died the same day and to be more specific he died the same moment he partook of the fruit. It calls spiritual death. It also calls "second death"
Eph 2:1:" ...who were dead in trespasses and sin..." (died spiritually)
1Tim 5:6: but she that liveth in pleasure is DEAD while she liveth. (physically not dead but spiritually is dead)
Rev 2:11 he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
So, Adam died spiritually the same day/the same moment. To become a sinner calls spiritual death.

Physical death. Adam lived 930 years.
Prophet of God said that with God 1 day as 1000 years and 1000 years as one day.
Is 930 years less than 1000 years?

You do NOT understand Prophets of God. But that is OK. It is better that you don't understand them.

English is not my native language.
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25-12-2013, 05:38 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2013 05:41 PM by Alla.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(25-12-2013 02:57 PM)viole Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that you don't want to do but do it anyway because you have compassion for those who needs your sacrifice. If later you will be rewarded by other things your action still is called "sacrifice".
Jesus Christ didn't want to take our sins upon Himself but He did it anyway.
Do you know what it means - to take sins of others upon yourself?

Alla. Jesus sacrifice is a joke. It is actually amazing that a relatively big minority of humans living today are touched or impressed by that.

Even if we take those nice fairies at face value, we would see tht Jesus knew on advance that He will come back in full glory, sitting at the right of the Father, and eventually, come back with swords coming out of his eyes, or other equivalent nonsense.

So, if I were God and knew everything in advance, like Jesus according to the legend, I would have no problem to take the sins of everybody upon myself, whatsoever. Would you? Big deal.


Ciao

- viole

Imagine this - you have children. You love them very much.
But somebody tells you: "I will take your children away and they will suffer at the place where I am taking them. Their suffering will be beyond the imagination. But you can save them. Only you. In order for you to save them you have to go through all the pains that exist in the world. Examples: you will feel pain of being burning alive, then you will feel being stabbed with knife all over your body, then you will feel pain of cancer, then you will feel pain of being punched and kicked, then you will feel pain of ripping off your limbs, eyes, ears, fingers, toes...and on and on and on.
After all that you will be restored and your children will be just fine.
CAN YOU DO THIS FOR THEM? CAN YOU SAVE THEM?
Would you call it a SACRIFICE? Hmmm.. sacrifice of your TIME? Instead of to have some fun you will SACRIFICE this TIME for other "fun"-turtures?
Do you think you could ENDURE TO THE END?
Jesus did it. He endured to the end.

English is not my native language.
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25-12-2013, 06:08 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(25-12-2013 05:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-12-2013 02:57 PM)viole Wrote:  Alla. Jesus sacrifice is a joke. It is actually amazing that a relatively big minority of humans living today are touched or impressed by that.

Even if we take those nice fairies at face value, we would see tht Jesus knew on advance that He will come back in full glory, sitting at the right of the Father, and eventually, come back with swords coming out of his eyes, or other equivalent nonsense.

So, if I were God and knew everything in advance, like Jesus according to the legend, I would have no problem to take the sins of everybody upon myself, whatsoever. Would you? Big deal.


Ciao

- viole

Imagine this - you have children. You love them very much.
But somebody tells you: "I will take your children away and they will suffer at the place where I am taking them. Their suffering will be beyond the imagination. But you can save them. Only you. In order for you to save them you have to go through all the pains that exist in the world. Examples: you will feel pain of being burning alive, then you will feel being stabbed with knife all over your body, then you will feel pain of cancer, then you will feel pain of being punched and kicked, then you will feel pain of ripping off your limbs, eyes, ears, fingers, toes...and on and on and on.
After all that you will be restored and your children will be just fine.
CAN YOU DO THIS FOR THEM? CAN YOU SAVE THEM?
Would you call it a SACRIFICE? Hmmm.. sacrifice of your TIME? Instead of to have some fun you will SACRIFICE this TIME for other "fun"-turtures?
Do you think you could ENDURE TO THE END?
Jesus did it. He endured to the end.

For crying out loud Alla, whatever for? What twisted mind would put anyone through that?

Nuts!

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25-12-2013, 08:45 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(25-12-2013 05:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  Imagine this - you have children. You love them very much.
But somebody tells you: "I will take your children away and they will suffer at the place where I am taking them. Their suffering will be beyond the imagination. But you can save them. Only you. In order for you to save them you have to go through all the pains that exist in the world. Examples: you will feel pain of being burning alive, then you will feel being stabbed with knife all over your body, then you will feel pain of cancer, then you will feel pain of being punched and kicked, then you will feel pain of ripping off your limbs, eyes, ears, fingers, toes...and on and on and on.
After all that you will be restored and your children will be just fine.
CAN YOU DO THIS FOR THEM? CAN YOU SAVE THEM?
Would you call it a SACRIFICE? Hmmm.. sacrifice of your TIME? Instead of to have some fun you will SACRIFICE this TIME for other "fun"-turtures?
Do you think you could ENDURE TO THE END?
Jesus did it. He endured to the end.

Now, imagine you're the one who sets the rules for who does and doesn't get tortured, and you can change your mind any time you want. You could change the rules to that no one gets tortured, but you don't. Instead, you decide you love them so much that you won't change the rules, but you'll send someone else to get tortured for them so that only some of them will get tortured, even though you could have just changed the rules in the first place.

What then?
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26-12-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(25-12-2013 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  You do NOT understand Prophets of God. But that is OK. It is better that you don't understand them.

You stupid motherfucker, neither do you. I just have the intellectual honesty to not pretend like I do.

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27-12-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(25-12-2013 08:45 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(25-12-2013 05:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  Imagine this - you have children. You love them very much.
But somebody tells you: "I will take your children away and they will suffer at the place where I am taking them. Their suffering will be beyond the imagination. But you can save them. Only you. In order for you to save them you have to go through all the pains that exist in the world. Examples: you will feel pain of being burning alive, then you will feel being stabbed with knife all over your body, then you will feel pain of cancer, then you will feel pain of being punched and kicked, then you will feel pain of ripping off your limbs, eyes, ears, fingers, toes...and on and on and on.
After all that you will be restored and your children will be just fine.
CAN YOU DO THIS FOR THEM? CAN YOU SAVE THEM?
Would you call it a SACRIFICE? Hmmm.. sacrifice of your TIME? Instead of to have some fun you will SACRIFICE this TIME for other "fun"-turtures?
Do you think you could ENDURE TO THE END?
Jesus did it. He endured to the end.

Now, imagine you're the one who sets the rules for who does and doesn't get tortured, and you can change your mind any time you want. You could change the rules to that no one gets tortured, but you don't. Instead, you decide you love them so much that you won't change the rules, but you'll send someone else to get tortured for them so that only some of them will get tortured, even though you could have just changed the rules in the first place.

What then?
I don't know what then. But I know this:
there are rules/laws and everybody is given moral agency.
Because everybody knows rules/laws and because everybody has moral agency everybody can govern himself/herself.
Because everybody can govern himself anything can happen.
All kinds of pains can happen. God Son has to know all those pains. How? He has to feel them. Only then God Son can truly understand us and He can know how to heal us.

Without the Atonement can be only Justice or can be only Mercy.
Only Justice = eternal hell. But where is love and compassion?
Only Mercy = eternal life. But where is personal accountability?

English is not my native language.
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27-12-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(26-12-2013 12:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-12-2013 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  You do NOT understand Prophets of God. But that is OK. It is better that you don't understand them.

You stupid motherfucker, neither do you. I just have the intellectual honesty to not pretend like I do.

So, You agree with me that you do not understand the Prophets.Thumbsup

English is not my native language.
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27-12-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
Quote: Only Justice = eternal hell. But where is love and compassion?
Only Mercy = eternal life. But where is personal accountability?

Name any crime whose equal payment is eternal pain and torment. One crime.

Also, I don't think eternal life would be mercy. Eternity is a VERY long time. I can't think of a worse torment than eternal consciousness and awareness.
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27-12-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(27-12-2013 03:46 PM)natachan Wrote:  
Quote: Only Justice = eternal hell. But where is love and compassion?
Only Mercy = eternal life. But where is personal accountability?
Name any crime whose equal payment is eternal pain and torment. One crime.
Breaking of any of God's laws.
And it doesn't matter how big or how small crime is. As soon as you commit any crime you become a criminal. No criminal can be where God is.

(27-12-2013 03:46 PM)natachan Wrote:  Also, I don't think eternal life would be mercy. Eternity is a VERY long time. I can't think of a worse torment than eternal consciousness and awareness.
Eternal life is not eternal consciousness and awareness. Immortality is eternal consciousness and awareness. Eternal life is eternal PROGRESSION.
Not all people who will have immortality will have eternal life -eternal progression.

English is not my native language.
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27-12-2013, 04:40 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(23-12-2013 07:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 07:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That is what I am referring to.
Where does it say that taking away sin of the world = taking away personal responsibility?
What sin was John talking about? A: Adam's sin

Jesus took sin of Adam because nobody is responsible for Adam's sin. And Adam is not responsible for that sin. It was God's plan that Adam would fall. Adam chose to obey another God's law - to be with his wife and multiply and replenish.
And Adam didn't know that break the law = bad/wrong/evil/sin.
God doesn't punish for being ignorant.
*Sigh*

Here are your choices:
1) If no one, including Adam, is responsible for Adam's sin, then there was nothing from which to be saved and Jesus' death was not a sacrifice, but just death.
2) Adam was responsible for Adam's sin and Jesus died in his place to atone for it.

Number 2 is the one most Christians believe. Number 1 is to be consistent with your personal version of the myth, but logically leads a conclusion that I'm pretty sure you will disagree with.

And regarding "God doesn't punish for being ignorant":
Since you think Adam didn't know he was sinning, then please explain natural disasters, disease, poverty, painful child birth and all the other things that are supposed punishments for original sin.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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