the sacrificial lamb
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27-12-2013, 10:17 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(27-12-2013 03:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-12-2013 12:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You stupid motherfucker, neither do you. I just have the intellectual honesty to not pretend like I do.

So, You agree with me that you do not understand the Prophets.Thumbsup

You stupid shit...

The point being that we can have a debate, but you do not get to make shit up and call it 'knowledge' or 'divine inspiration' or in other ways claim that you have a direct line to god or access to special knowledge that allows you to get the 'one true and correct' meaning of whatever bullshit holy book or prophet.

We have the intellectual honesty to do this, you simply do not.

That's why in addition to being a stupid motherfucker, you can now add 'purposely obtuse' and 'disingenuous in the extreme' to your list of caveats.

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28-12-2013, 10:17 AM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(27-12-2013 03:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-12-2013 12:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You stupid motherfucker, neither do you. I just have the intellectual honesty to not pretend like I do.

So, You agree with me that you do not understand the Prophets.Thumbsup

The point EvolutionKills is getting at is if you rely on backing your point with "a proper understanding of the prophets" and "the Holy Spirit", then we can counter you with similar claims. All we have to do is tell you that the Holy Spirit told us something different, and then we can claim victory. It's not compelling and it's not intellectually honest.

An argument stands on it's own merits or it does not. Claiming you have some special, nonfalsifiable agency in discerning the truth is just special pleading.
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28-12-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(27-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know what then. But I know this:
there are rules/laws and everybody is given moral agency.
Because everybody knows rules/laws and because everybody has moral agency everybody can govern himself/herself.
Because everybody can govern himself anything can happen.
All kinds of pains can happen. God Son has to know all those pains. How? He has to feel them. Only then God Son can truly understand us and He can know how to heal us.

Without the Atonement can be only Justice or can be only Mercy.
Only Justice = eternal hell. But where is love and compassion?
Only Mercy = eternal life. But where is personal accountability?

You're putting limitations on God. Does God have the ability to create the rules as he sees fit, or not? Does God have the ability to decide what punishment is appropriate or not?

If not, do you believe that the rules and Hell existed before God, and he is beholden to them?

If you believe he has power over these things, then God could simply create a different set of rules and a different system for punishment. That is where I was going with my initial response. So, which is it? Are the system and hell more powerful than God, or is his whole punishment system arbitrary?

You can't have it both ways.
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28-12-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 10:17 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(27-12-2013 03:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, You agree with me that you do not understand the Prophets.Thumbsup

The point EvolutionKills is getting at is if you rely on backing your point with "a proper understanding of the prophets" and "the Holy Spirit", then we can counter you with similar claims. All we have to do is tell you that the Holy Spirit told us something different, and then we can claim victory. It's not compelling and it's not intellectually honest.

An argument stands on it's own merits or it does not. Claiming you have some special, nonfalsifiable agency in discerning the truth is just special pleading.
I understand what you are saying.
Without Holy Ghost we can interpret Scriptures anyway we want and anybody can say: "I am right because I am smarter".
but this is not how it works. Scriptures are written by influence of the Holy Ghost. They can be understood only by influence of the Holy Ghost.
According to the Scriptures Holy Ghost is the Teacher and He is Witness and Comforter. He testifies of the truth. He comforts in times of trials. God sends Holy Ghost to those who believe and make covenant with Him. Prophets gave GIFT of the Holy Ghost to those who were baptized(see NT).
To have gift of the Holy Ghost is one of the basic principle of the Gospel.
Atheists do not have this gift. According to the Bible someone has to be baptized first by those who have authority.

English is not my native language.
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28-12-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 11:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  Without Holy Ghost we can interpret Scriptures anyway we want and anybody can say: "I am right because I am smarter".
but this is not how it works. Scriptures are written by influence of the Holy Ghost. They can be understood only by influence of the Holy Ghost.
According to the Scriptures Holy Ghost is the Teacher and He is Witness and Comforter. He testifies of the truth. He comforts in times of trials. God sends Holy Ghost to those who believe and make covenant with Him. Prophets gave GIFT of the Holy Ghost to those who were baptized(see NT).
To have gift of the Holy Ghost is one of the basic principle of the Gospel.

I get the whole "I'm smarter than you" thing. You don't want person A and person B arguing two different stances backed solely by their own claims of intellectual superiority, but what happens when both of them claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit? Now, you have person A and B claiming the exact same things, but using a different justification. How do you know which of them, if either of them, are right?


(28-12-2013 11:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  Atheists do not have this gift. According to the Bible someone has to be baptized first by those who have authority.

While I'm certainly not claiming to have any special connection to one third of God, I don't know how you can possibly think that this is a credible metric for discerning truth. How do you know when a "true believer" is inspired by the Holy Spirit and when they're lying (or even confused)? It's just a special-pleading-escape-hatch.
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28-12-2013, 01:10 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2013 01:15 PM by Alla.)
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 10:20 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(27-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Without the Atonement can be only Justice or can be only Mercy.
Only Justice = eternal hell. But where is love and compassion?
Only Mercy = eternal life. But where is personal accountability?
You're putting limitations on God.
Did God say that His power is an absolute power?
(28-12-2013 10:20 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Does God have the ability to create the rules as he sees fit, or not?
Yes, as long as it doesn't make Him to break laws which He follows.
(28-12-2013 10:20 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Does God have the ability to decide what punishment is appropriate or not?
Yes, as long as it doesn't make Him to break laws which He follows

(28-12-2013 10:20 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If you believe he has power over these things, then God could simply create a different set of rules and a different system for punishment. That is where I was going with my initial response. So, which is it? Are the system and hell more powerful than God, or is his whole punishment system arbitrary? You can't have it both ways.
I will try to explain as shortly as possible.

Gods the same as EVERYTHING have to obey eternal laws and principles.

So, our God Heavenly Father Elohim is Justice and Mercy. If He has to forgive a sinner He can not be Just God.
If He has to punish a sinner He can not be Merciful God.

That is why we need another God - Yahweh or God Son Jesus Christ or Redeemer Who can help to have both Justice and Mercy.
When He pays for our sins Justice is satisfied. And after Justice is satisfied we can have Mercy.
It is like debts. If I have a debt and can not pay I go to prison/pit. It is some kind of justice, creditor still doesn't have his money back. And where is mercy?
But if I have a friend who LOVES me and have COMPASSION for me and can pay off my debt then creditor is paid - justice for creditor and I am free - mercy. But there is a catch.
My friend says: "Your debt is paid. Now I am your creditor. Now you owe to me. But covenant/contract with me is different then with your previous creditor. I know that you can not pay off everything that is why I saved you from the pit. And I love you, my friend. All you have to do is to pay me back only what you can. What you can not pay I will forgive". By keeping laws/agreement/covenant with my friend I am paying back all and what I can. So, my freedom is not completely free ride for me. It is fair to ask to do ALL you CAN. It wouldn't be fair to have free ride.

So God Father can make only one of the agreements:
1)you pay back everything or you go to the pit. (you save yourself from the sins or you go to hell).
We can not save ourselves from the sins we commit. It is not possible.
We can not pay money back which we don't have.

or
2)God Father can forgive us completely.
But then God Father can not be Justice.

His hands are tied. He has to be BOTH.
That is why we have God son or God Yahweh(Jesus Christ).
He can pay off our debts to Father - Justice. And we can be redeemed - Mercy thanks to Jesus Christ(God Son Yahweh).

Before we came here God Father explained to us that after we sin He can not just forgive us or just punish us. That is why He asked:" whom should I send to redeem the world?"
And the first one(Jehovah) said: "Father send Me". But then the second one Son of the Morning or Lucifer said:"Father send Me" .
The second one was rejected. The first one was chosen.
And there is a reason why the first one was chosen and the other one was rejected.

English is not my native language.
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28-12-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 11:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  ...but this is not how it works. Scriptures are written by influence of the Holy Ghost. They can be understood only by influence of the Holy Ghost.
According to the Scriptures Holy Ghost is the Teacher and He is Witness and Comforter. He testifies of the truth. He comforts in times of trials. God sends Holy Ghost to those who believe and make covenant with Him. Prophets gave GIFT of the Holy Ghost to those who were baptized(see NT).
To have gift of the Holy Ghost is one of the basic principle of the Gospel.
Atheists do not have this gift. According to the Bible someone has to be baptized first by those who have authority.

You keep saying that, but you have no evidence that it is true.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 01:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-12-2013 11:46 AM)Alla Wrote:  ...but this is not how it works. Scriptures are written by influence of the Holy Ghost. They can be understood only by influence of the Holy Ghost.
According to the Scriptures Holy Ghost is the Teacher and He is Witness and Comforter. He testifies of the truth. He comforts in times of trials. God sends Holy Ghost to those who believe and make covenant with Him. Prophets gave GIFT of the Holy Ghost to those who were baptized(see NT).
To have gift of the Holy Ghost is one of the basic principle of the Gospel.
Atheists do not have this gift. According to the Bible someone has to be baptized first by those who have authority.

You keep saying that, but you have no evidence that it is true.
I know. I accept this. That is why you don't have to believe. But you can have Witness of the Holy Ghost. Depends on you.

English is not my native language.
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28-12-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 01:32 PM)Alla Wrote:  But you can have Witness of the Holy Ghost.

False. One can be self-deluded into believing that s/he has witnessed the holy spirit.

There is a huge difference between reality and fantasy, which most theists seem unable to grasp considering they believe in fairy tales.
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28-12-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: the sacrificial lamb
(28-12-2013 01:32 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(28-12-2013 01:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  You keep saying that, but you have no evidence that it is true.
I know. I accept this. That is why you don't have to believe. But you can have Witness of the Holy Ghost. Depends on you.

I don't believe in fantasy. You seem to be delusional.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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