the sanctity of life
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11-03-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
If someone is suffering due to a physical condition that can't be treated or healed and their choice is reduced to either living in constant pain or to end it; then it would be awful to not let them do as they please with their own life. I wouldn't want to live in pain and torment. I've made my position pretty clear mate and I am not here in search of some contrarian argument about taboo subjects. You can try to help a person find the desire to live whilst they are still alive but once they are gone, they're gone. I know that some mental conditions can be caused by physical afflictions in the brain and that some conditions can manifest physically as symptoms which can be painful. Obviously it is not black and white and every case is different so you can't have a general, knee-jerk response to anyone considering suicide. So yeah, police being called and people being admitted to institutions is not a great system. My point is, what is the harm in trying to help someone want to live?
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11-03-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 10:40 AM)Seldon Wrote:  If someone is suffering due to a physical condition that can't be treated or healed and their choice is reduced to either living in constant pain or to end it; then it would be awful to not let them do as they please with their own life. I wouldn't want to live in pain and torment. I've made my position pretty clear mate and I am not here in search of some contrarian argument about taboo subjects. You can try to help a person find the desire to live whilst they are still alive but once they are gone, they're gone. I know that some mental conditions can be caused by physical afflictions in the brain and that some conditions can manifest physically as symptoms which can be painful. Obviously it is not black and white and every case is different so you can't have a general, knee-jerk response to anyone considering suicide. So yeah, police being called and people being admitted to institutions is not a great system. My point is, what is the harm in trying to help someone want to live?

I agree with much of what you say, but we are in the philosophy section here, so I am also trying to tackle the basic question - "what makes life valuable" and keep it to a personal level, keep euthanasia and murder and death penalties and abortion etc. out of it. Just each person and their own life.

The questions that come to mind are:

Do you have the right to decide whether you yourself live or die?

Do others have the right to interfere with your decision? If so, can they use force?

Thing is, this is not just a taboo conversation, it is also very controversial, just like abortion. It is an emotional issue, based on instincts, and mostly not looked at rationally.

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11-03-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(07-03-2014 04:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  So, I think we all agree that murder is a bad thing,
Ahem, clears throat. Not us moral nihilists.
I don't want to be murdered though. So I'll agree to a society which doesn't allow people to be murdered.

(07-03-2014 04:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  Then, when it comes to what constitutes murder, it isn't all that clear cut anymore, as for example in the abortion issue. I guess we first have to agree on what life is. But that is not the point I am making.
That's an easy one. Scientifically objectively verifiable and all.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
It has blurry fringes of course but a zygote, fetus is definitely alive.

It's not my place however to force other people to keep their unborn alive. Not my business. I'm at no risk of being aborted myself.


(07-03-2014 04:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  I want to talk about suicide.
Great topic, difficult topic.
I'm certainly for euthanasia, and I think some physically healthy people have very reasonable reasons for wanting/needing to end it.

Problem is life has ups and downs, do we off ourselves in the downs or do we ride them out?
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11-03-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 12:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Problem is life has ups and downs, do we off ourselves in the downs or do we ride them out?

Well, should that be our decision or someone else's?

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11-03-2014, 07:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 08:51 PM by donotwant.)
RE: the sanctity of life
If I want to die I want to DIE. And anybody who tries to get in my way would be an evil bastard who inflicts suffering upon me.
Keeping prisoners in the world is immoral and everybody who wants to be released should be released.
I should be able to exit this world just as I can exit this room. And other people should have no authority to keep me here.
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11-03-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 05:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 12:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Problem is life has ups and downs, do we off ourselves in the downs or do we ride them out?

Well, should that be our decision or someone else's?
Be a bit scary if someone else could decide on my behalf that my life should be terminated (justifying to themselves that I seemed depressed).

The third party may be a safety net though, protect me from offing myself when I am depressed, maybe been dumped by a lover or losing a job or losing a heap of money...

Maybe get people in good times to set up this safety net (if they want it), then when the bad times come, the safety net person must give the OK in order for me to have assisted suicide..
If they haven't set up the safety net and they want to off themselves then so be it!
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11-03-2014, 11:34 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(07-03-2014 05:15 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I'd generally advise people against suicide. But just generally.

In the case of serious illnesses, I believe someone should hold on as long as they can, in the hope of a new treatment currently unknown or of a, rare but possible, spontaneous remission. I like to be positive and hope for the best. People who may have a chance to survive should think about what their future self would have to say about their past decision to just give up (sorry, I don't know if that makes sense).

In the case of young people and/or cases of clinical depression, I think it should be prevented at all costs. These people do not realize that life will not necessarily be this way forever.

Finally, in the cases of senior suicides over health issues, I think it should be up to the individual, provided that they are mentally healthy enough to make a responsible and conscious decision.

My mother always tells us that in case she gets dementia or something, she doesn't want us to let her live. I know it would be impossible for me to let my own mother just die, but I can say I understand why people should feel so.

You might not feel the way you do about suicide w.r.t. health issues until you or a loved one has to live through excruciating pain that will never end until death's release. Imagine if your choice in life consists of unbearable pain or a morphine drip that essentially makes you unable to experience life.

In general, I'm in favor of individuals choosing when to end their own lives so long as the medical field has sufficient precautions to protect against a treatable depression being the reason for the choice to end ones life.
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11-03-2014, 11:39 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 11:45 PM by donotwant.)
RE: the sanctity of life
Quote:If they haven't set up the safety net and they want to off themselves then so be it!
Yes! Finally somebody who makes sense!

I was going to kill myself few years ago but the fucking government ruined my plan.
They forced me then to have boring conversations with doctors which did not help AT ALL.

And guess what? Still want to die!
All these people who constantly argue against suicide simply project their own will to live on me.
If you want to live then live I'm not stopping you. But just because you like living doesn't mean you should force others to do it.
If people would just let me die then I would be dead and other people can keep on living and not listening to my suicidal ramblings. Everybody happy.

And I'm tired of all the losers who argue for extreme cases. I don't want to wait till I have fucking cancer I just want to die already. And society should grow up and stop fucking with my life.
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11-03-2014, 11:47 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 05:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  So you guys are saying that a person must stay alive to benefit others, whether they themselves suffer greatly or not?

Are you really that altruistic?

And Seldon also states that even when physical suffering has become intolerable, the family has a say? Not the person him/herself as autonomous being?

I'm just musing, really.

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11-03-2014, 11:52 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
Dom Wrote:So you guys are saying that a person must stay alive to benefit others, whether they themselves suffer greatly or not?
No.
I am not their poperty.
Dom Wrote:Are you really that altruistic?
No.
And if somebody else is he can suffer all day long if he wants to it's his decision not mine.
Dom Wrote:And Seldon also states that even when physical suffering has become intolerable, the family has a say? Not the person him/herself as autonomous being?
No.
I am not their property + they had enough control over my life already no way will they keep me here by force Tongue
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