the sanctity of life
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11-03-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 02:01 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  It's my life. Nobody has any rights over it except me.



Of course, then there's another issue. We base many of our laws on the harm that certain activities bring upon another individual. You can't start hitting someone because that hurts them and they don't want to be hurt. You can't rape someone because that hurts them and they don't want to be hurt. You can't steal from someone because that hurts them and they don't want to be hurt.

If I kill myself and that hurts those who love me…? Say I have a daughter. Say I raise her until she's 18 and we have the closest of relationships. Then I kill myself. She is emotionally hurt by this. So much so that she ends up killing herself because she can't bear the pain of not having me around.

How do I, Miso, justify keeping things illegal which harm another individual, and yet advocate having complete freedom over my own existence when that may entail hurting someone close to me if I choose to end it? Where do I draw the line in deciding what sorts of harm are acceptable? Where is the line drawn that states I'm not allowed to murder someone, but I AM allowed to destroy myself and, in doing so, cause them to murder themselves?



/thinking out loud.

Our laws are generally to restrict a person from infringing on someone elses rights. Your rights end where someone else's begin. You may hit yourself , but you may not hit your daughter because she has a right not to be hit. She does not have any rights to your body and while it may hurt her to see you hit yourself she cannot stop you.
You may not take your daughters car because she has a right to possess her own car. You may take back the car she borrowed from you even though she needs it, and while it hurts her financially to have no way to drive to work she has no right to possess your car. You may not kill your daughter because she has a right to live her life. You may kill yourself, and while it may hurt her to lose you she has no right to your life.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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11-03-2014, 11:59 PM
RE: the sanctity of life
LostandInsecure Wrote:Our laws are generally to restrict a person from infringing on someone elses rights.
Laws also generally restrict my rights.
They made everything that I can die with illegal to buy. And if I try to die they have right to take me to ER against my will.
Basically they make suicide a hard and risky endeavor and then pretend they are not getting in my way.
The plan I was using few years ago required money which I was earning when I was feeling awful and they ruined it. Imagine I was working to earn my death and it was taken away. Am I prisoner here or what? For what crimes?
Also they prevented my plan before it got put in practice. If they would fuck with the process I could be physically injured and they would say it was my fault.
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12-03-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 12:41 PM)Dom Wrote:  The questions that come to mind are:

Do you have the right to decide whether you yourself live or die?

Do others have the right to interfere with your decision? If so, can they use force?
There is no authoritative source as to what is a right and what is not a right. It's a meaningless term.

What is important is whether I personally feel it to be my business to interfer in the lifes/choices/actions of others.
Government and law is merely an extension of myself. If I deem it necessary to interfer then i support law, otherwise I do not support law.

With this in mind, is it my place to stop someone from intentionally killing themselves? Do they need to explain/justify themselves to me?
What makes it any of my business?
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12-03-2014, 01:16 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
(12-03-2014 01:07 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 12:41 PM)Dom Wrote:  The questions that come to mind are:

Do you have the right to decide whether you yourself live or die?

Do others have the right to interfere with your decision? If so, can they use force?
There is no authoritative source as to what is a right and what is not a right. It's a meaningless term.

What is important is whether I personally feel it to be my business to interfer in the lifes/choices/actions of others.
Government and law is merely an extension of myself. If I deem it necessary to interfer then i support law, otherwise I do not support law.

With this in mind, is it my place to stop someone from intentionally killing themselves? Do they need to explain/justify themselves to me?
What makes it any of my business?
You can talk to me but never try to physically prevent it. That would be too much oppression Wink
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12-03-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 11:59 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
LostandInsecure Wrote:Our laws are generally to restrict a person from infringing on someone elses rights.
Laws also generally restrict my rights.
They made everything that I can die with illegal to buy. And if I try to die they have right to take me to ER against my will.
Basically they make suicide a hard and risky endeavor and then pretend they are not getting in my way.
The plan I was using few years ago required money which I was earning when I was feeling awful and they ruined it. Imagine I was working to earn my death and it was taken away. Am I prisoner here or what? For what crimes?
Also they prevented my plan before it got put in practice. If they would fuck with the process I could be physically injured and they would say it was my fault.
Imo most (not all) laws that prohibit things that do not infringe on anyone else's rights are a violation of the freedom our country claims to have more of than anyone else. Many are also unconstitutional, like anti-ssm and anti-abortion laws.
Every person has the right to live and the right to die. To me it is unacceptable for any person or government to interfere with those 2 rights.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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12-03-2014, 01:36 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2014 02:38 AM by donotwant.)
RE: the sanctity of life
(12-03-2014 01:36 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 11:59 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Laws also generally restrict my rights.
They made everything that I can die with illegal to buy. And if I try to die they have right to take me to ER against my will.
Basically they make suicide a hard and risky endeavor and then pretend they are not getting in my way.
The plan I was using few years ago required money which I was earning when I was feeling awful and they ruined it. Imagine I was working to earn my death and it was taken away. Am I prisoner here or what? For what crimes?
Also they prevented my plan before it got put in practice. If they would fuck with the process I could be physically injured and they would say it was my fault.
Imo most (not all) laws that prohibit things that do not infringe on anyone else's rights are a violation of the freedom our country claims to have more of than anyone else. Many are also unconstitutional, like anti-ssm and anti-abortion laws.
Every person has the right to live and the right to die. To me it is unacceptable for any person or government to interfere with those 2 rights.

Agree! Rolleyes
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12-03-2014, 04:09 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
(11-03-2014 12:41 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 10:40 AM)Seldon Wrote:  If someone is suffering due to a physical condition that can't be treated or healed and their choice is reduced to either living in constant pain or to end it; then it would be awful to not let them do as they please with their own life. I wouldn't want to live in pain and torment. I've made my position pretty clear mate and I am not here in search of some contrarian argument about taboo subjects. You can try to help a person find the desire to live whilst they are still alive but once they are gone, they're gone. I know that some mental conditions can be caused by physical afflictions in the brain and that some conditions can manifest physically as symptoms which can be painful. Obviously it is not black and white and every case is different so you can't have a general, knee-jerk response to anyone considering suicide. So yeah, police being called and people being admitted to institutions is not a great system. My point is, what is the harm in trying to help someone want to live?

I agree with much of what you say, but we are in the philosophy section here, so I am also trying to tackle the basic question - "what makes life valuable" and keep it to a personal level, keep euthanasia and murder and death penalties and abortion etc. out of it. Just each person and their own life.

The questions that come to mind are:

Do you have the right to decide whether you yourself live or die?

Do others have the right to interfere with your decision? If so, can they use force?

Thing is, this is not just a taboo conversation, it is also very controversial, just like abortion. It is an emotional issue, based on instincts, and mostly not looked at rationally.

Do you have the right to decide whether you yourself live or die?

I think yes, every living person has the right to decide their own fate, but it may not be the right decision for them. Even though they come to that decisions themselves. I know that sounds super arrogant and I don't claim that I can ever know more about how a person feels than they do, but the amount of times that I myself have been so convinced of something which I later thought was a shit idea. Even if someone thinks suicide is the right decision, their state of mind at the time is subject to change. I wonder how many failed suicides have gone on to live happy, full lives afterwards. I just think that our minds are constantly changing in flux with our experiences and that suicide is just so final a choice to make.

I guess that it could be argued on the contrary that a happy person at any moment could go on to experience things that will one day make them suicidal. I guess that ultimately, my opinion is a personal choice. Any of us could end it at any moment and then not have a care in the world. We wouldn't know that we were dead. If I killed myself right now then I wouldn't know anything in order to feel anything about it. So why do I choose to stay alive? Because every particle of my being, every experience I have had and a fun mix of brain chemicals are working obligingly to make me want to experience life. That and I believe that whilst I am the central perspective of my own little world, that the people around me are more than just environmental factors. I believe that those people are the centre of their own world, some affected by my influence. If I ended it all now I wouldn't know about the suffering I had caused once I was gone, but I do know about the potential affect now due to empathy. So I guess I have come full circle with this.

Apologies for the bla bla bla lol, I am a messy thinker and an even messier writer. Yes, I think it is the individuals right to choose suicide. I just think it is an unfortunate, inconsiderate choice to make and that given the necessary experiences, their choice may change.

Do others have the right to interfere with your decision?

Yeah I believe that people have the right to intervene with suicide under certain circumstances. For all of the reasons I stated regarding the potential for an individual changing their mind about suicide and also as a defensive move for the well being of those who would be affected by the suicide. Say if my mother told me that she was considering suicide, you're damn right I would try to convince her to want to live. For myself, my sister, my father, her friends and most importantly for her.

If so, can they use force?

Nah, I don't think that is helpful. My point has always been that a person can change their mind and want to live. That is the difference. Its like the movie scene where the cop tries to talk the guy down from the roof. If the guy comes down then he decided to live. He made the choice himself with some influence. If the guy jumps then he has decided to die, again his own choice despite intervention from the cop, but you cant blame the cop for trying. If however, Superman turned up and grabbed the guy before he had a chance to make that choice and then threw him in a padded cell then there is no choice involved. Obviously I am being a tad flippant here, I am not suggesting that every suicide can be averted via a short conversation on a roof top but you get what I mean, sometimes it takes external influence from another person to help break that pattern in a person's thinking and get them to start feeling more optimistic about life.

It is a difficult one for me I have to admit because fundamentally I am a materialist. Even so, I value it all. Even if my ability to have this discussion with you, to think, to feel, to experience is all just a happy accident - I still experience it none-the-less. I still think (as best I can haha) and I still feel. Life, I often feel, is massively underrated.
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12-03-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
Seldon let's say I want to die. Should government give me the poison?
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12-03-2014, 04:41 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
(12-03-2014 04:17 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Seldon let's say I want to die. Should government give me the poison?

Nah man. If you wanted to die it would be your choice. If you told me about it then I would try to convince you to stick around for a while and maybe seek some sort of support in the hope that you might change your mind and want to live. If you obliged me and went away from that still wanting to die then you can get your own poison.
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12-03-2014, 04:43 AM
RE: the sanctity of life
(12-03-2014 04:41 AM)Seldon Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 04:17 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Seldon let's say I want to die. Should government give me the poison?

Nah man. If you wanted to die it would be your choice. If you told me about it then I would try to convince you to stick around for a while and maybe seek some sort of support in the hope that you might change your mind and want to live. If you obliged me and went away from that still wanting to die then you can get your own poison.
Where can I buy some poison? I tried to purchase suicide weapon but government took it away from me Big Grin
See you say I have the choice but in the same time people are getting in the way.
Where is the consistency here?
As for convincing me to live I wanted to die for a decade and had a lot of conversations with doctors. Is that not enough?
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