theist to agnostic to atheist
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10-01-2014, 06:25 PM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
Don't get me wrong, though. I do think Dawkins is a brilliant man. I agree with most of what he says ..... just not everything he says.
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10-01-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(10-01-2014 06:07 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Technically weak/strong atheism does not have to map to agnostic/gnostic atheism. But it totally depends on how you define weak and strong atheism.

if weak atheism (aka implicit atheism) = "lacking belief in a god" then this is a position on belief,
It is not a position on belief it is an absence of belief, an absence of any position either way.
Quote:and does not mention knowledge. Although I'd say you can usually infer that weak atheism implies agnostic atheism.
Correct. What you can say is that some weak atheists are weak atheists because they reckon they don't have enough knowledge to believe neither that god(s) do nor that they don't exist.
Quote:If strong atheism (aka explicit atheism) = "believing there is no god" then again this is a position on belief, and does not mention knowledge.
Correct.
Quote:You can believe there is no god, but be uncertain, thus being an agnostic "strong atheist."
Correct. You can believe there is no god but also say that you don't have enough knowledge to claim to know there is no god and be an agnostic "strong atheist".
Quote:Or you can believe there is no god, and feel you know this, thus being a gnostic "strong atheist."
Correct.
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10-01-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(10-01-2014 06:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Now, they are two positions: both of which are a subset of atheism.
No they aren't. All atheists are not theists. Strong atheists are a subset of all atheists. The opposite of theist is "strong atheist" not "all atheists".
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10-01-2014, 07:24 PM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(10-01-2014 06:25 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Don't get me wrong, though. I do think Dawkins is a brilliant man. I agree with most of what he says ..... just not everything he says.

He seems like a petulant ass to me, can't see myself interested in a sit down with him.

Although I like what he is doing and agree with everything I have read/heard from him so far.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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11-01-2014, 08:52 PM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(10-01-2014 06:51 PM)Artie Wrote:  
(10-01-2014 06:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Now, they are two positions: both of which are a subset of atheism.
No they aren't. All atheists are not theists. Strong atheists are a subset of all atheists. The opposite of theist is "strong atheist" not "all atheists".

That's not what I said. I said theism is binary, and you've been arguing that it's not the case, yet at the same time implicitly agreeing.

You can either be a theist or an atheist. Never both. Never neither. Always one or the other. If you are a theist, you're a theist (obviously). You've listed this as one of your three groups.

If you're not a theist, you're atheist. Now, you've split these two into weak atheists and strong atheists, both of which are atheists. They are both subsets of atheism.

Everything in your three groups are either theists or atheists. It's binary. Why are you arguing this point when you keep implicitly admitting it?
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12-01-2014, 03:57 AM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014 08:00 AM by Artie.)
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(11-01-2014 08:52 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If you're not a theist, you're atheist. Now, you've split these two into weak atheists and strong atheists, both of which are atheists. They are both subsets of atheism.

Everything in your three groups are either theists or atheists. It's binary. Why are you arguing this point when you keep implicitly admitting it?
You keep saying that weak and strong atheism are subsets when weak atheism is the set and strong atheism is the subset.

1. No belief in gods (Weak Atheism) is the set common to all atheists and is the default until you become either a theist or a strong atheist.
2. No belief in gods + belief that gods don't exist is a subset of all who are not theists. (Strong Atheism).
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12-01-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(12-01-2014 03:57 AM)Artie Wrote:  You keep saying that weak and strong atheism are subsets when weak atheism is the set and strong atheism is the subset.

1. No belief in gods (Weak Atheism) is the set common to all atheists and is the default until you become either a theist or a strong atheist.
2. No belief in gods + belief that gods don't exist is a subset of all who are not theists. (Strong Atheism).

Atheism: No belief in gods.

--- Weak atheism/agnostic atheism: No belief in gods due to a lack of belief.

--- Strong atheism/gnostic atheism: Believing there are no gods.


They are both subsets of atheism. Atheism does not have a belief in gods. Weak atheism lacks a positive belief in gods. Strong atheism has a negative belief in gods. They are both atheists.
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12-01-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
I went from Theist to Agnostic to Atheist simply because I was too indoctrinated as a child to simply give up my belief right away. I was always a skeptic, and when I kept asking questions to people in my religion around me, especially those philosophical ones, I'd always end up walking away with an unsatisfied poor excuse of an answer. This didn't totally shut me out to religion, at first I went to Agnosticism, then Pascals wager, and then after almost a year, atheism at the age of 16. It was a long process of simply researching, looking at what others said, and trying my hardest to eliminate my bias. The reason why almost 100% of theists don't wake up the next morning and say "Oh, silly me! There is no God after all!", is mainly because they believe based off of faith, not evidence. When you believe in something because you wish it's there, you still believe in Santa Clause, and it's very hard to break out of that type of irrational thinking.

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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12-01-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(12-01-2014 08:30 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Atheism: No belief in gods.

--- Weak atheism/agnostic atheism: No belief in gods due to a lack of belief.
"Weak atheism is defined as simply the absence of belief in gods or the absence of theism." http://atheism.about.com/od/Atheist-Dict...theism.htm
"Agnostic atheism is defined as not knowing for sure if any gods exist or not but also not believing in any gods." http://atheism.about.com/od/Agnostic-Dic...nition.htm

Now, please explain to us how you can equate "the absence of belief in gods" with "not knowing for sure if any gods exist or not but also not believing in any gods." Perhaps you notice that the first definition doesn't mention knowledge but the second does and that makes them different? Smile
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12-01-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: theist to agnostic to atheist
(12-01-2014 10:59 AM)Artie Wrote:  "Weak atheism is defined as simply the absence of belief in gods or the absence of theism." http://atheism.about.com/od/Atheist-Dict...theism.htm
"Agnostic atheism is defined as not knowing for sure if any gods exist or not but also not believing in any gods." http://atheism.about.com/od/Agnostic-Dic...nition.htm

Now, please explain to us how you can equate "the absence of belief in gods" with "not knowing for sure if any gods exist or not but also not believing in any gods." Perhaps you notice that the first definition doesn't mention knowledge but the second does and that makes them different? Smile

Those both encompass lacking a belief in gods without having an actual negative belief in gods. If you don't know if they exist for sure, then you would be lacking the belief.
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