thought to ponder
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22-12-2016, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2016 10:20 AM by DLJ.)
thought to ponder
I would like to present a question without representing any side.

Is the definition of a belief an individual opinion that everyone has the right to make for themselves?

Then why are Christians ask to prove their choice? Shouldn't atheists be required the equal request to show evidence that proves God or any God does NOT exist? Or prove that there is no life after death?

If we say there is no God are we making a claim as if we are qualified to make that claim? but a fair argument would ask: what qualifies Christians to claim there is a God? Regardless of the side you're on, what does qualify us as individuals to claim truth. And does our opinion what we belief to be the meaning of life make our belief truth? Does the fact that we believe in what we believe make it true or does self proclamation allow us the belief that our opinion is correct?

Why are those who believe that God is real and people who reject Christ can not enter heaven considered intolerable because they practice what they believe?

Are they expected to change their belief and be tolerant to others who do not agree? Wouldn't the person accusing them of being intolerant of other beliefs be claiming their belief to be truth by intolerating the beliefs they decided is incorrect?

Atheists Christians and all religions agree on a truth that our lives have followed regardless of belief. Every language includes the words bad and good right are wrong.

Where and why were these words created in every language understood as truth included in the foundation of all communication. Christianity is the only religion that claims moral truth. All other religion teaches truth because in order to change truth as a foundation, it takes learning doctric to leave the birthplace of truth
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22-12-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: thought to ponder
(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  I would like to present a question without representing any side.

Is the definition of a belief an individual opinion that everyone has the right to make for themselves?

Then why are Christians ask to prove their choice? Shouldn't atheists be required the equal request to show evidence that proves God or any God does NOT exist? Or prove that there is no life after death?

Christians are not believing their thing and minding their own business. They're asking others to also believe what they believe. Often, I might add, they're aggressively asking others to believe it.

If they want me to believe what they believe, they need to prove it to my satisfaction.
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22-12-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: thought to ponder
Another Jenny Gasp There can be only one. A fight to the death Tongue Big Grin

Welcome to TTA Smile

As an atheist, what do I have to prove? I'm not asserting anything. The theist says God is real. You made a claim. If you make a claim, you provide evidence to support your claim.
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22-12-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: thought to ponder
The burden of proof isn't something atheists hide behind, no matter how much the religious insist we do. The reason someone making a claim bears the burden of proving it true is because that's how logic works.

Also, to be clear, most atheists don't claim there's no god/life after death. We simply accept that the possibility is as remote as the possibility that there's a teapot orbiting Pluto (from what I hear it's full of Earl Grey. Pity.)

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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22-12-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: thought to ponder
I really don't care who believes in what.

If everyone felt that way, there would be no issues and everyone could believe in whatever without anyone bothering them.

However, unfortunately xtians are very intolerant of non believers, as are islamists and many other belief systems. Some just want us to do as they do and pester us, or exclude us from social functions. Others go as far as wanting to kill people for not believing as they do.

The trouble starts when people think their gods tell them to go after non believers and convert or kill them. So many wars... so may deaths... for what?

If you get hell bent on converting me, you're going to have to prove to me that what you claim is true.

I do not care to convert you, so I have nothing to prove.

P.S. It is a really, really bad idea to publish your email address like this.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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22-12-2016, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2016 12:54 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: thought to ponder
Hello! Big Grin

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  I would like to present a question without representing any side.

Thumbsup

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Is the definition of a belief an individual opinion that everyone has the right to make for themselves?

Consider Um, maybe? Though I'm sure others will be along with a much better and erudite definition of the term about which you ask my take on things are

1) No one can really tell/effect exactly WHAT it is that another person believes/thinks. We're all our own universes wrapped within the confines of our skin. Heart

2) Well... not if a person's belief is shown to be something that will lead to that person being hurt.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Then why are Christians ask to prove their choice?

Consider

I don't require theists to 'Prove' their choice. I rather simply ask them about their beliefs and the 'why' of said beliefs.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Shouldn't atheists be required the equal request to show evidence that proves God or any God does NOT exist? Or prove that there is no life after death?

Consider Um... why should a Non-theist be asked to prove such things?

(It's actually really hard, nigh on an impossibly, to prove something that doesn't actually exist.)

A Non-theist isn't saying a deity does exist. I certainly don't. My stance is there's not a jot of any indication that any deity does exist. Thumbsup

If a Non-theist actually says that they think no deities exist, then potentially yes... they should start thinking of ways to show that deities don't make sense in light of what we know/understand about reality.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  If we say there is no God are we making a claim as if we are qualified to make that claim?

Yes Yes, I agree and did address that comment above.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  But a fair argument would ask: what qualifies Christians to claim there is a God? Regardless of the side you're on, what does qualify us as individuals to claim truth. And does our opinion what we belief to be the meaning of life make our belief truth? Does the fact that we believe in what we believe make it true or does self proclamation allow us the belief that our opinion is correct?

We can state that what we believe is correct... but then others are free to ask us the reasons as to why we believe such things to be correct.

Understand? Smile

Just believing something doesn't, however, make it so though. We can't push clouds with our minds.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Why are those who believe that God is real and people who reject Christ can not enter heaven considered intolerable because they practice what they believe?

Um, what? Sorry you've lost me a tad here.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Are they expected to change their belief and be tolerant to others who do not agree?

Well.. one would hope so. Yes

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Wouldn't the person accusing them of being intolerant of other beliefs be claiming their belief to be truth by in-tolerating the beliefs they decided is incorrect?

Well.. and here's the tricky thing... if said beliefs are wrong... wouldn't it/shouldn't it be others actual obligation to point out/show that said ideas/beliefs are, indeed, wrong? As above, incorrect beliefs can lead to the holders getting hurt. Either physically or perhaps even emotionally.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Atheists Christians and all religions agree on a truth that our lives have followed regardless of belief. Every language includes the words bad and good right are wrong.

Unfortunately no. Not all of the above agree on what is and is not 'True'. Much conflict is then had because of such disagreements. Sad

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Where and why were these words created in every language understood as truth included in the foundation of all communication.

Well.. I'm not sure if in fact every language does, in fact, have those terms and meanings. I'm sure some one more knowledgeable on the forum will be along to shed light on the idea. Yes

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Christianity is the only religion that claims moral truth.

I'd ask for a citation or verification of that point. I'm pretty sure a LOT of other belief systems and religions also claim moral truths.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  All other religion teaches truth because in order to change truth as a foundation, it takes learning doctric to leave the birthplace of truth.

Sorry, you've lost me on this last point.

Sorry for cutting up your comments... Hug.. but I think I've done a pretty good job of addressing them in my fashion.

I hope we can engage in interesting dialogue and discussions.

Not at work. Big Grin

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22-12-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: thought to ponder
The problem with many who believe in a god is their need for others to also believe in that god.

As for who must prove what...if there is a god he ought to be able to prove his existence to me without having to rely on a middleman. Unless and until (s)he does so I stick with my non-belief.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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22-12-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: thought to ponder
(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  I would like to present a question without representing any side.

'kay.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Is the definition of a belief an individual opinion that everyone has the right to make for themselves?

eh. It depends. Everyone has the right to define their own beliefs. However we do not choose what we believe. We become convinced of our beliefs over time and as a result of the way our brains receive, interpret and process information.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Then why are Christians ask to prove their choice?

It's not just christians. Anyone making a claim has the burden of proof. If you claim a belief in the christian god then it is up to you to justify that belief.

The default state is non-belief.

Theist A claims belief in the Greek/Roman gods.
Theist B claims belief in the Norse gods.
Theist C claims belief in Islam
Theist D claims belief in Christianity.
Theist E claims belief in Judaism.

They are all contradictory. If we assume that all are true until proven otherwise then we are forced to hold contradictory beliefs.

Worse, believing without evidence creates a gullible mindset and makes one vulnerable to exploitation.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Shouldn't atheists be required the equal request to show evidence that proves God or any God does NOT exist?

You cannot prove a negative. If a believer is willing to lay out their beliefs and reasons for them, an atheist can try to disprove parts or all of them.

To some extent though the burden of proof also can rest on the person trying to convince others. Usually it's the believers that are projecting their beliefs on others.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Or prove that there is no life after death?

In this case, the burden of proof would be on anyone making the claim that there is life after death. Since no evidence of any afterlife or post-life existence has been verified, I'd say that non-belief is a good place to start.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Regardless of the side you're on, what does qualify us as individuals to claim truth.

The only thing that can allow one to consider a statement as "true" is sufficient evidence. Evidence that can be tested, verified and repeated.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  And does our opinion what we belief to be the meaning of life make our belief truth? Does the fact that we believe in what we believe make it true or does self proclamation allow us the belief that our opinion is correct?

See above.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Why are those who believe that God is real and people who reject Christ can not enter heaven considered intolerable because they practice what they believe?

Because believers insist on forcing others to conform to the believers ways.

Against abortion? Don't have one. But don't pass laws against it either.
Against birth control? Don't use any. But don't stop others from using it.
Against gay marriage? Don't marry someone of your gender. But don't , well you get the idea.

Your religious beliefs have no meaning to me and I should not have to abide by them.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Atheists Christians and all religions agree on a truth that our lives have followed regardless of belief. Every language includes the words bad and good right are wrong.

And good and bad mean different things to everyone.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Where and why were these words created in every language understood as truth included in the foundation of all communication.

I suggest looking around this site for threads on morality. The subject has been talked about in great detail. It's not quite as clear cut as we would like to think.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  Christianity is the only religion that claims moral truth.

The christian bible has detailed rules for slavery.
The doctrine of hell is incredible sadistic.
The concept of vicarious redemption is unethical.

(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  All other religion teaches truth because in order to change truth as a foundation, it takes learning doctric to leave the birthplace of truth

There is no such thing as "truth". Statements can be true. But "truth" often depends on perception.
"All" other religions? Name some.
"Birthplace of truth"? huh?
"Truth as a foundation"? Sounds rather vague. Every fanatic thinks they start from a foundation of truth.

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22-12-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: thought to ponder
(22-12-2016 09:07 AM)jennylindstrom99@gmail.com Wrote:  I would like to present a question without representing any side.

Is the definition of a belief an individual opinion that everyone has the right to make for themselves?

Legally? Yes

Quote:Then why are Christians ask to prove their choice? Shouldn't atheists be required the equal request to show evidence that proves God or any God does NOT exist? Or prove that there is no life after death?

Any atheist that makes those claims does bear a burden of proof.

Quote:If we say there is no God are we making a claim as if we are qualified to make that claim?

We?...

You seem to have a misconception about what an atheist is. Atheism is not "there is no god". It is "I don't believe there is a god" or "I don't see good evidence that a god exists". Some atheists do state it as conclusive but not all.

Quote:but a fair argument would ask: what qualifies Christians to claim there is a God? Regardless of the side you're on, what does qualify us as individuals to claim truth. And does our opinion what we belief to be the meaning of life make our belief truth? Does the fact that we believe in what we believe make it true or does self proclamation allow us the belief that our opinion is correct?

Believing something does not "make it "true" in any meaningful sense. The "it is true for me" mantra is nonsense in that respect.

Quote:Why are those who believe that God is real and people who reject Christ can not enter heaven considered intolerable because they practice what they believe?

Because they create laws based primarily on their beliefs and not evidence. Because they insist on cramming religion into every government meeting and as many aspects of daily life as they can. Because they get indignant when somebody doesn't want to participate. Because they tell atheists they need to sit down and shut up whenever they speak out about the waste of time and money on religious rituals in public spaces and the inherently divisive nature of those activities.

Quote:Are they expected to change their belief and be tolerant to others who do not agree? Wouldn't the person accusing them of being intolerant of other beliefs be claiming their belief to be truth by intolerating the beliefs they decided is incorrect?

Atheists don't insist that city council meetings start with a declaration that there is no god. We don't insist that every bit of currency, every courtroom, and every building be festooned with "there is no god" slogans. We don't insist that believers have to say "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas".

Quote:Atheists Christians and all religions agree on a truth that our lives have followed regardless of belief. Every language includes the words bad and good right are wrong.

Yes, secular values are basic to most humans. Religions get their morality from the culture, not vice-versa. We evolved as a social species and that provides the foundation that specific cultures built on.

Quote:Where and why were these words created in every language understood as truth included in the foundation of all communication.

I have no idea what that was meant to say.

Quote:Christianity is the only religion that claims moral truth.

Citation required. I suspect most other religions would disagree.

Quote:All other religion teaches truth because in order to change truth as a foundation, it takes learning doctric to leave the birthplace of truth

Again, I have no idea what you mean by that.

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22-12-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: thought to ponder
The sum of my answer to you is two questions.
1) do you care what I believe?
2) Why?
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