vegan philosophy
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04-08-2014, 07:16 AM
RE: vegan philosophy
Its a lifestyle choice, a diet plan with morals.
The argument of which is better is irrelevant.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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04-08-2014, 08:54 AM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 05:42 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 11:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Do you have a source?

http://www.mnn.com/food/healthy-eating/q...ut-protein

Animal protein is considered to be a more “complete” protein. What do I mean by that? Protein from things such as chicken or beef contain all the necessary amino acids our body needs to make new protein since animal proteins are most similar to the ones found in our body. Proteins from plant sources such as soy or vegetables generally do not contain all of the essential amino acids that our body needs.

http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys...ve-effects

Except for quinoa.
Anyone needing a non meat protein source should check out quinoa.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-08-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: vegan philosophy
(03-08-2014 04:45 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  What would we do with all these cows if we didn't eat them? Big Grin

[Image: 20130907.png]
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3105

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-08-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: vegan philosophy
(03-08-2014 11:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 05:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Capture their methane output as a renewable energy source. I see thousands of acres of cows in stalls with funnels up their ass. Technically we'd be vegan as long as we didn't eat them. Drinking Beverage

I don't think so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

wikipedia Wrote:Veganism /ˈviːɡənɪzəm/ is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, as well as following an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of sentient animals. A follower of veganism is known as a vegan.

Except you don't

[Image: no-such-thing-as-a-vegan.jpg]

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-08-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 05:42 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 11:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Do you have a source?

http://www.mnn.com/food/healthy-eating/q...ut-protein

Animal protein is considered to be a more “complete” protein. What do I mean by that? Protein from things such as chicken or beef contain all the necessary amino acids our body needs to make new protein since animal proteins are most similar to the ones found in our body. Proteins from plant sources such as soy or vegetables generally do not contain all of the essential amino acids that our body needs.

http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys...ve-effects

The first is a soft piece about nutrition. Animal proteins are "complete" because they contain all the essential amino acids within one food source. That doesn't mean they are better, only that you could eat meat to the exclusion of all other proteins and your protein intake would be "complete", meaning containing all the base amino acids your body requires. Plant based proteins are "incomplete" because they do not have all the amino acids you need in one source; if you ate nothing but potatoes you would run into problems. Fortunately our bodies are smart, and they can assemble the appropriate amino acids from multiple food sources to create complete proteins. If your body couldn't do that, you would be an obligate carnivore, and all vegans would be dead.

The second piece is another "soy scare" bit. It is unclear as to whether or not soy, when consumed in large quantities, is actually bad for your. The science on both sides of the debate is a bit incomplete. Moderation is the best advice for the time being. Just a note, all people are eating soy. It is in everything because soy is grown after corn in corn production, because it has a "nitrogen-fixing" property. It helps rejuvenate the soil for the next round of corn production. That is why soy is in almost everything; it's cheap and produced in abudance. A meat eater likely eats almost as much soy as most vegans (hint, read your food labels).

Neither source confirms your first assertion. You don't have to eat twice as much plant based proteins to get the benefit of half as much animal based protein.

All this underlying another assumption, that vegans have problems with protein. In general, we don't. Vegans are not dieing of protein deficiency, we don't have problems with brain development, we don't need protein supplements just to get by. Animal meat is a great source of protein. It doesn't follow that if you stop eating it, you suddenly won't get enough.

(04-08-2014 06:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  The importance of vegan philosophy is that there is precious little vegan science. Drinking Beverage

What do you mean?

(04-08-2014 09:39 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 11:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I don't think so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

Except you don't

[Image: no-such-thing-as-a-vegan.jpg]

Rev you brought this up a few times, and I didn't answer it because at the time it wasn't appropriate.

You cannot completely escape animals products or animal byproducts in modern society. You got me. The wood glue used to hold houses together is often made with gelatin, an animal by product, and there are animal products in lost of innocuous things like electronics, plumbing, and sometimes even food packaging. It is in cleaning supplies, toothpaste, soaps and shampoos and laundry detergent; pretty much everywhere and everything. For my part I read the labels on not only my food but on all of my cleaning products, health care products, skin care products, ect and choose the vegan brands where available. Everything that I can control I do. The rest I have to let go.

The underlying philosophy is the minimize harm principle. It is a pretty simple principle; use as little animal products as you can, harm as few animals as you can.

Just as an aside, the reason so many animals products show up in things that seem so unnecessary, like laundry detergent, is because animal byproducts from slaughter houses are so abundantly available and cheap. There are plant based glues and lubricants and gelling agents, and they are available and mass producible, but they aren't used because they aren't common. Perhaps someday they will be, but not today.
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04-08-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 06:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  The importance of vegan philosophy is that there is precious little vegan science. Drinking Beverage

What do you mean?

Veganism fails to live up to it's health claims. All it has is a very tenuous moral claim and even that is kind of iffy.

(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 09:39 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except you don't

[Image: no-such-thing-as-a-vegan.jpg]

Rev you brought this up a few times, and I didn't answer it because at the time it wasn't appropriate.

You cannot completely escape animals products or animal byproducts in modern society. You got me. The wood glue used to hold houses together is often made with gelatin, an animal by product, and there are animal products in lost of innocuous things like electronics, plumbing, and sometimes even food packaging. It is in cleaning supplies, toothpaste, soaps and shampoos and laundry detergent; pretty much everywhere and everything. For my part I read the labels on not only my food but on all of my cleaning products, health care products, skin care products, ect and choose the vegan brands where available. Everything that I can control I do. The rest I have to let go.

The underlying philosophy is the minimize harm principle. It is a pretty simple principle; use as little animal products as you can, harm as few animals as you can.

Then how would using cows as a source of methane in replacement of fossil fuels not line up with this stance? Are not far more animals hurt by oil drilling and transportation than cows being slightly inconvenienced? If you are pressing a do least harm rather than a do no harm (which thank you for acknowledging is impossible, points for honesty) philosophy, then using cattle in such a manner would be far less harm than using oil.


(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Just as an aside, the reason so many animals products show up in things that seem so unnecessary, like laundry detergent, is because animal byproducts from slaughter houses are so abundantly available and cheap. There are plant based glues and lubricants and gelling agents, and they are available and mass producible, but they aren't used because they aren't common. Perhaps someday they will be, but not today.


Yes, and no. The reason we have found so many uses is melinia of domesticated animals and hunting. We are very privileged to live in a time when the chances of starving to death (in the western world at least) is practically unheard of. However for most of our species existence it was use 100% (or as close to 100%) of every resource to eek out 1 more day. Now there are some animal products that are used not just because of abundance but because they are simply better. Animal based glue for instance and soap. As we all learned from fight club lye + fat = soap. We as a species have formed many symbiotic relationships with other animals, some like cats and dogs for their usefulness others like pigs and cows for food. But even the ones we eat are not done so because we hate them rather it is a trade off, we raise them and keep them safe from other predators, insuring they reproduce and keep them relatively safe and healthy (Not getting into stockyard issues here as I am against those as well) they gain a safe relatively easy life compared to wild grazers we gain a food/resource not all of which require the animal to die, aka laying hens and milking cows.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-08-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
[Image: SimpsonsQuoteCow.jpg]

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04-08-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 05:42 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  http://www.mnn.com/food/healthy-eating/q...ut-protein

Animal protein is considered to be a more “complete” protein. What do I mean by that? Protein from things such as chicken or beef contain all the necessary amino acids our body needs to make new protein since animal proteins are most similar to the ones found in our body. Proteins from plant sources such as soy or vegetables generally do not contain all of the essential amino acids that our body needs.

http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys...ve-effects

The first is a soft piece about nutrition. Animal proteins are "complete" because they contain all the essential amino acids within one food source. That doesn't mean they are better, only that you could eat meat to the exclusion of all other proteins and your protein intake would be "complete", meaning containing all the base amino acids your body requires. Plant based proteins are "incomplete" because they do not have all the amino acids you need in one source; if you ate nothing but potatoes you would run into problems. Fortunately our bodies are smart, and they can assemble the appropriate amino acids from multiple food sources to create complete proteins. If your body couldn't do that, you would be an obligate carnivore, and all vegans would be dead.

The second piece is another "soy scare" bit. It is unclear as to whether or not soy, when consumed in large quantities, is actually bad for your. The science on both sides of the debate is a bit incomplete. Moderation is the best advice for the time being. Just a note, all people are eating soy. It is in everything because soy is grown after corn in corn production, because it has a "nitrogen-fixing" property. It helps rejuvenate the soil for the next round of corn production. That is why soy is in almost everything; it's cheap and produced in abudance. A meat eater likely eats almost as much soy as most vegans (hint, read your food labels).

Neither source confirms your first assertion. You don't have to eat twice as much plant based proteins to get the benefit of half as much animal based protein.

All this underlying another assumption, that vegans have problems with protein. In general, we don't. Vegans are not dieing of protein deficiency, we don't have problems with brain development, we don't need protein supplements just to get by. Animal meat is a great source of protein. It doesn't follow that if you stop eating it, you suddenly won't get enough.

(04-08-2014 06:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  The importance of vegan philosophy is that there is precious little vegan science. Drinking Beverage

What do you mean?

(04-08-2014 09:39 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except you don't

[Image: no-such-thing-as-a-vegan.jpg]

Rev you brought this up a few times, and I didn't answer it because at the time it wasn't appropriate.

You cannot completely escape animals products or animal byproducts in modern society. You got me. The wood glue used to hold houses together is often made with gelatin, an animal by product, and there are animal products in lost of innocuous things like electronics, plumbing, and sometimes even food packaging. It is in cleaning supplies, toothpaste, soaps and shampoos and laundry detergent; pretty much everywhere and everything. For my part I read the labels on not only my food but on all of my cleaning products, health care products, skin care products, ect and choose the vegan brands where available. Everything that I can control I do. The rest I have to let go.

The underlying philosophy is the minimize harm principle. It is a pretty simple principle; use as little animal products as you can, harm as few animals as you can.

Just as an aside, the reason so many animals products show up in things that seem so unnecessary, like laundry detergent, is because animal byproducts from slaughter houses are so abundantly available and cheap. There are plant based glues and lubricants and gelling agents, and they are available and mass producible, but they aren't used because they aren't common. Perhaps someday they will be, but not today.


Really good post. Well written.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-08-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 12:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  What do you mean?

Veganism fails to live up to it's health claims. All it has is a very tenuous moral claim and even that is kind of iffy.

Philosophically speaking veganism isn't about personal health. Different people make different health claims. Some of them are well documented and included in peer reviewed journals, and some are not. If you care to bring up a specific claim then we can discuss it. I might just agree with you that it's bogus.

It should also be noted that being vegan doesn't automatically make you more healthy. You can get plenty of bad shit from plants, especially if you try at it. I do believe that a proper vegan diet is healthy and has been adequately demonstrated to prolong life and reduce the instances of many diseases.

Quote:
(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Rev you brought this up a few times, and I didn't answer it because at the time it wasn't appropriate.

You cannot completely escape animals products or animal byproducts in modern society. You got me. The wood glue used to hold houses together is often made with gelatin, an animal by product, and there are animal products in lost of innocuous things like electronics, plumbing, and sometimes even food packaging. It is in cleaning supplies, toothpaste, soaps and shampoos and laundry detergent; pretty much everywhere and everything. For my part I read the labels on not only my food but on all of my cleaning products, health care products, skin care products, ect and choose the vegan brands where available. Everything that I can control I do. The rest I have to let go.

The underlying philosophy is the minimize harm principle. It is a pretty simple principle; use as little animal products as you can, harm as few animals as you can.

Then how would using cows as a source of methane in replacement of fossil fuels not line up with this stance? Are not far more animals hurt by oil drilling and transportation than cows being slightly inconvenienced? If you are pressing a do least harm rather than a do no harm (which thank you for acknowledging is impossible, points for honesty) philosophy, then using cattle in such a manner would be far less harm than using oil.

I haven't given any serious consideration to harvesting methane gas from cows Confused . I don't really have an opinion.


Quote:
(04-08-2014 12:11 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Just as an aside, the reason so many animals products show up in things that seem so unnecessary, like laundry detergent, is because animal byproducts from slaughter houses are so abundantly available and cheap. There are plant based glues and lubricants and gelling agents, and they are available and mass producible, but they aren't used because they aren't common. Perhaps someday they will be, but not today.


Yes, and no. The reason we have found so many uses is melinia of domesticated animals and hunting. We are very privileged to live in a time when the chances of starving to death (in the western world at least) is practically unheard of. However for most of our species existence it was use 100% (or as close to 100%) of every resource to eek out 1 more day. Now there are some animal products that are used not just because of abundance but because they are simply better. Animal based glue for instance and soap. As we all learned from fight club lye + fat = soap. We as a species have formed many symbiotic relationships with other animals, some like cats and dogs for their usefulness others like pigs and cows for food. But even the ones we eat are not done so because we hate them rather it is a trade off, we raise them and keep them safe from other predators, insuring they reproduce and keep them relatively safe and healthy (Not getting into stockyard issues here as I am against those as well) they gain a safe relatively easy life compared to wild grazers we gain a food/resource not all of which require the animal to die, aka laying hens and milking cows.

The historical reasons we developed these products is one debate, the practical application of them to our modern society is another. I wouldn't agree that animal soap for personal care is any better than plant based soap, as just one example. I also wouldn't agree that just because we did something in the past means we should continue to do the same thing in the future. Its a broad topic though. If you narrow it down for me it would be easier to discuss.
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04-08-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 12:59 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 12:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Veganism fails to live up to it's health claims. All it has is a very tenuous moral claim and even that is kind of iffy.

Philosophically speaking veganism isn't about personal health. Different people make different health claims. Some of them are well documented and included in peer reviewed journals, and some are not. If you care to bring up a specific claim then we can discuss it. I might just agree with you that it's bogus.

It should also be noted that being vegan doesn't automatically make you more healthy. You can get plenty of bad shit from plants, especially if you try at it. I do believe that a proper vegan diet is healthy and has been adequately demonstrated to prolong life and reduce the instances of many diseases.

Only when compared to a poor diet, it does below average when compared to a healthy well rounded diet. There is a reason very few athletes are vegan.



(04-08-2014 12:59 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
Quote:Then how would using cows as a source of methane in replacement of fossil fuels not line up with this stance? Are not far more animals hurt by oil drilling and transportation than cows being slightly inconvenienced? If you are pressing a do least harm rather than a do no harm (which thank you for acknowledging is impossible, points for honesty) philosophy, then using cattle in such a manner would be far less harm than using oil.

I haven't given any serious consideration to harvesting methane gas from cows Confused . I don't really have an opinion.

You expressed one in response to Girly's post about using methane from cattle being vegan. That was what I was referring to.

(04-08-2014 12:59 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
Quote:Yes, and no. The reason we have found so many uses is melinia of domesticated animals and hunting. We are very privileged to live in a time when the chances of starving to death (in the western world at least) is practically unheard of. However for most of our species existence it was use 100% (or as close to 100%) of every resource to eek out 1 more day. Now there are some animal products that are used not just because of abundance but because they are simply better. Animal based glue for instance and soap. As we all learned from fight club lye + fat = soap. We as a species have formed many symbiotic relationships with other animals, some like cats and dogs for their usefulness others like pigs and cows for food. But even the ones we eat are not done so because we hate them rather it is a trade off, we raise them and keep them safe from other predators, insuring they reproduce and keep them relatively safe and healthy (Not getting into stockyard issues here as I am against those as well) they gain a safe relatively easy life compared to wild grazers we gain a food/resource not all of which require the animal to die, aka laying hens and milking cows.

The historical reasons we developed these products is one debate, the practical application of them to our modern society is another. I wouldn't agree that animal soap for personal care is any better than plant based soap, as just one example. I also wouldn't agree that just because we did something in the past means we should continue to do the same thing in the future. Its a broad topic though. If you narrow it down for me it would be easier to discuss.

That was more a broad counter to your argument that the only reason we use animal products in unexpected places is due to modern slaughterhouses.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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