vegan philosophy
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-08-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 02:37 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  How come nobody ever shows compassion for the lives and mutilation of vegetation?

Same reason I don't show it to lamb, because they taste good with lamb and with garlic and salt.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 01:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 12:59 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I haven't given any serious consideration to harvesting methane gas from cows Confused . I don't really have an opinion.

You expressed one in response to Girly's post about using methane from cattle being vegan. That was what I was referring to.




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
04-08-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
Perhaps you guys could define what you mean by "vegan"? I understood vegetarian to be someone who avoids meat and vegan to be someone who tries to avoid meat products as well? So no milk, eggs etc?

I've also heard that proper proper veganism is gonna not give you all the nutrients you need - I fully expect that you will tell me that this is incorrect. Is it incorrect? Another thing that I've heard is that it's not good for kids. Confirm/deny? I suppose I can always go wikipedia this and I will but... also interested to hear from you guys.

One more thing - is there any particular reason to be vegan or is it just a lifestyle choice thing? What is the reason you guys (those who are vegan) are vegan, if there is one, what made you decide this was the way to go?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 03:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 01:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You expressed one in response to Girly's post about using methane from cattle being vegan. That was what I was referring to.




I can't help buy wonder how Nachin would react to that...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 03:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  Perhaps you guys could define what you mean by "vegan"? I understood vegetarian to be someone who avoids meat and vegan to be someone who tries to avoid meat products as well? So no milk, eggs etc?

I've also heard that proper proper veganism is gonna not give you all the nutrients you need - I fully expect that you will tell me that this is incorrect. Is it incorrect? Another thing that I've heard is that it's not good for kids. Confirm/deny? I suppose I can always go wikipedia this and I will but... also interested to hear from you guys.

One more thing - is there any particular reason to be vegan or is it just a lifestyle choice thing? What is the reason you guys (those who are vegan) are vegan, if there is one, what made you decide this was the way to go?

There are three categories that are relevant here:

vegetarian: doesn't eat meat
total vegetarian: doesn't eat anything that comes from an animal; includes milk and eggs (or rather excludes)
vegan: Doesn't eat anything from an animal. Avoids consuming any products that have animal ingredients (like shampoos with milk ingredients).

A proper vegan diet can account for all of your nutrition. You might hear people talk about protein. I addressed that earlier in the thread. Some people might bring up vitamin B12, which is a vitamin produced in sea algae, of all things, and found in small quantities in some animals. As it turns out vitamin b12 can be easily cultivated from bacteria, and unbeknownst to most of us our grains are actually fortified with very minute amounts of vitamin b12.

I do know of many vegans, particularly old school vegans, who have developed bone problems like scoliosis. You can get calcium from food naturally, like broccoli, and most soil milk, almond milk, rice milk, and coconut milk are calcium fortified. It is also a good idea to watch your iron intake. Black beans and spinach are great sources of vegetable iron.

Expecting vegan mothers have to be careful about their nutrition intake, just like non vegan mothers. It would recommend prenatal vitamins. When breast feeding it is a good idea to take supplements and make sure to include high protein and high fat foods in the mother's diet. I would recommend fortifying baby food with iron and continuing to feed the baby a high fat, high protein diet for the first couple years of life. I have heard several tragic stories of vegan babies not getting the proper nutrition, especially if that baby has existing health conditions that impact nutrition. Many people have raised vegan children, it can be done and they are healthy kids, but you as a parent have to be particularly careful because nutrition is so important in the womb and the first few years of life.

I chose to become a vegan for several reasons. The biggest motivator for me to switch, and the thing that continues to motivate me today, is the deplorable conditions animals are raised in and slaughtered in. I saw the documentary "vegecated" , and watched them show footage of chick sorting plant, where they took baby chicks, grinded down their beaks on a giant sander, and then discarded the male chicks by the hundreds and large bags. They were dumped in a garbage. They didn't even bother to kill them.

There was another scene in the movie, where they rescued a egg laying hen. Her body had worn out and she would have been sent to the slaughter house. While the hen was being held I mistook her for dead. The animal was completely listless, empty expression, not moving or protesting. Perhaps it was me just personifying myself into the animal, but it looked to me as if something inside that hen had died. Not something physical, but something mental, and emotionally. When you imagine what egg laying hens go through - confined to a cage so small they can't stand up or turn around and not able to see the sun or walk about; it is what I imagined I would look like and feel like if I were that hen.

They took it to an animal rescue, and place the hen on the ground. Just like rip van winkle the hen came back to life, clucking, pecking at the dirt, walking about. It impacted me deeply, to see this animal I mistook for dead behaving like a regular chicken as soon as they placed it on the dirt out in the sun. I know this is deeply personal and not applicable to everyone, but in that moment I realized that even simple animals have something like soul, or a sense of being and a personality if you prefer, that I recognized as important and similar to my own. I cried, finished the documentary, and then I haven't eaten an animal sense.

tl;dr animal suffering. I realized that I didn't believe in treating living, intelligent things that way and didn't want to be a part of it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Michael_Tadlock's post
04-08-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
Thanks for the detailed answer Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 04:19 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 03:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  Perhaps you guys could define what you mean by "vegan"? I understood vegetarian to be someone who avoids meat and vegan to be someone who tries to avoid meat products as well? So no milk, eggs etc?

I've also heard that proper proper veganism is gonna not give you all the nutrients you need - I fully expect that you will tell me that this is incorrect. Is it incorrect? Another thing that I've heard is that it's not good for kids. Confirm/deny? I suppose I can always go wikipedia this and I will but... also interested to hear from you guys.

One more thing - is there any particular reason to be vegan or is it just a lifestyle choice thing? What is the reason you guys (those who are vegan) are vegan, if there is one, what made you decide this was the way to go?

There are three categories that are relevant here:

vegetarian: doesn't eat meat
total vegetarian: doesn't eat anything that comes from an animal; includes milk and eggs (or rather excludes)
vegan: Doesn't eat anything from an animal. Avoids consuming any products that have animal ingredients (like shampoos with milk ingredients).

A proper vegan diet can account for all of your nutrition. You might hear people talk about protein. I addressed that earlier in the thread. Some people might bring up vitamin B12, which is a vitamin produced in sea algae, of all things, and found in small quantities in some animals. As it turns out vitamin b12 can be easily cultivated from bacteria, and unbeknownst to most of us our grains are actually fortified with very minute amounts of vitamin b12.

I do know of many vegans, particularly old school vegans, who have developed bone problems like scoliosis. You can get calcium from food naturally, like broccoli, and most soil milk, almond milk, rice milk, and coconut milk are calcium fortified. It is also a good idea to watch your iron intake. Black beans and spinach are great sources of vegetable iron.

Expecting vegan mothers have to be careful about their nutrition intake, just like non vegan mothers. It would recommend prenatal vitamins. When breast feeding it is a good idea to take supplements and make sure to include high protein and high fat foods in the mother's diet. I would recommend fortifying baby food with iron and continuing to feed the baby a high fat, high protein diet for the first couple years of life. I have heard several tragic stories of vegan babies not getting the proper nutrition, especially if that baby has existing health conditions that impact nutrition. Many people have raised vegan children, it can be done and they are healthy kids, but you as a parent have to be particularly careful because nutrition is so important in the womb and the first few years of life.

I chose to become a vegan for several reasons. The biggest motivator for me to switch, and the thing that continues to motivate me today, is the deplorable conditions animals are raised in and slaughtered in. I saw the documentary "vegecated" , and watched them show footage of chick sorting plant, where they took baby chicks, grinded down their beaks on a giant sander, and then discarded the male chicks by the hundreds and large bags. They were dumped in a garbage. They didn't even bother to kill them.

There was another scene in the movie, where they rescued a egg laying hen. Her body had worn out and she would have been sent to the slaughter house. While the hen was being held I mistook her for dead. The animal was completely listless, empty expression, not moving or protesting. Perhaps it was me just personifying myself into the animal, but it looked to me as if something inside that hen had died. Not something physical, but something mental, and emotionally. When you imagine what egg laying hens go through - confined to a cage so small they can't stand up or turn around and not able to see the sun or walk about; it is what I imagined I would look like and feel like if I were that hen.

They took it to an animal rescue, and place the hen on the ground. Just like rip van winkle the hen came back to life, clucking, pecking at the dirt, walking about. It impacted me deeply, to see this animal I mistook for dead behaving like a regular chicken as soon as they placed it on the dirt out in the sun. I know this is deeply personal and not applicable to everyone, but in that moment I realized that even simple animals have something like soul, or a sense of being and a personality if you prefer, that I recognized as important and similar to my own. I cried, finished the documentary, and then I haven't eaten an animal sense.

tl;dr animal suffering. I realized that I didn't believe in treating living, intelligent things that way and didn't want to be a part of it.

I suppose one of the reasons that I don't dwell on the poor treatment of animals is because I saw something very different. My grandparents on my father's side were farmers. The cows were petted and talked to and had a wonderful timber to wander through all day. They were calm and, as kids, my cousin and I spent hours in the barns and outside with all the animals there. The pigs could be a little dicey, especially the sows with new litters. But they also had the timber to roam in and grandpa would remove a sow from her litter so that we could hold and watch the piglets. Grandma kept chickens and other sorts of fowl. The chicks and young chickens lived in the apple orchard where the brooder house was. The hens had a big area in one building where I would walk through with grandma looking for eggs.

It was a small farm. They had enough livestock to feed themselves and to sell. And the milk truck coming was a big deal. Grandma sold eggs. I spent hours washing and gently placing eggs in cases while we talked. We were taught to respect the animals but we also were quite aware of their eventual fate.

While I know that the animals on the mega farms aren't getting that kind of treatment. I still support and respect the farmers that made up my family and the families around me when I was growing up.

We make our choices based on our experiences, I suppose. Between having farmers on one side of the family and deep sea fishermen on the other, I guess eating meat is here to stay in my world.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Anjele's post
04-08-2014, 04:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2014 05:19 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 04:19 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I chose to become a vegan for several reasons. The biggest motivator for me to switch, and the thing that continues to motivate me today, is the deplorable conditions animals are raised in and slaughtered in.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable personal decision to me. Reminds me of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle".

(04-08-2014 04:19 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When you imagine what egg laying hens go through - confined to a cage so small they can't stand up or turn around and not able to see the sun or walk about; it is what I imagined I would look like and feel like if I were that hen. ... I realized that I didn't believe in treating living, intelligent things that way and didn't want to be a part of it.

But I find it a bit naive and anthropocentric. You're already eating a shitload of insects whether you know it or not. Vegans are gonna have to deal with entomophagy if they want to maintain a consistent "do no harm" philosophy. And why do you think we are in some sorta privileged position to determine sentience anyway? I asked you in the other thread what makes you think the carrot doesn't scream just because you don't hear it? I wasn't being flippant.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
04-08-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
My understanding of veganism is not so much around food but around exploitation. For example, say we had lab cultured meat that didn't exploit any animals in its production... then that would be vegan. However, say we had milk from an industrial dairy farm that kept cows in feed lots and only let them out to draw their milk... that would not be vegan. An animal doesn't need to be killed to breach the definition of vegan. It just needs to be exploited. From there you can argue the boundaries. Does a subsistence farmer milking her free range cow in the morning constitute exploitation? Does owning a dog count, or a cat? Since animals cannot, as a rule, give informed consent the lines can be blurry. As such, the simplest practical definitions tend to come down to choices around food an animal products.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Hafnof's post
04-08-2014, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2014 05:47 PM by Michael_Tadlock.)
RE: vegan philosophy
(04-08-2014 04:55 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 04:19 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  There are three categories that are relevant here:

vegetarian: doesn't eat meat
total vegetarian: doesn't eat anything that comes from an animal; includes milk and eggs (or rather excludes)
vegan: Doesn't eat anything from an animal. Avoids consuming any products that have animal ingredients (like shampoos with milk ingredients).

A proper vegan diet can account for all of your nutrition. You might hear people talk about protein. I addressed that earlier in the thread. Some people might bring up vitamin B12, which is a vitamin produced in sea algae, of all things, and found in small quantities in some animals. As it turns out vitamin b12 can be easily cultivated from bacteria, and unbeknownst to most of us our grains are actually fortified with very minute amounts of vitamin b12.

I do know of many vegans, particularly old school vegans, who have developed bone problems like scoliosis. You can get calcium from food naturally, like broccoli, and most soil milk, almond milk, rice milk, and coconut milk are calcium fortified. It is also a good idea to watch your iron intake. Black beans and spinach are great sources of vegetable iron.

Expecting vegan mothers have to be careful about their nutrition intake, just like non vegan mothers. It would recommend prenatal vitamins. When breast feeding it is a good idea to take supplements and make sure to include high protein and high fat foods in the mother's diet. I would recommend fortifying baby food with iron and continuing to feed the baby a high fat, high protein diet for the first couple years of life. I have heard several tragic stories of vegan babies not getting the proper nutrition, especially if that baby has existing health conditions that impact nutrition. Many people have raised vegan children, it can be done and they are healthy kids, but you as a parent have to be particularly careful because nutrition is so important in the womb and the first few years of life.

I chose to become a vegan for several reasons. The biggest motivator for me to switch, and the thing that continues to motivate me today, is the deplorable conditions animals are raised in and slaughtered in. I saw the documentary "vegecated" , and watched them show footage of chick sorting plant, where they took baby chicks, grinded down their beaks on a giant sander, and then discarded the male chicks by the hundreds and large bags. They were dumped in a garbage. They didn't even bother to kill them.

There was another scene in the movie, where they rescued a egg laying hen. Her body had worn out and she would have been sent to the slaughter house. While the hen was being held I mistook her for dead. The animal was completely listless, empty expression, not moving or protesting. Perhaps it was me just personifying myself into the animal, but it looked to me as if something inside that hen had died. Not something physical, but something mental, and emotionally. When you imagine what egg laying hens go through - confined to a cage so small they can't stand up or turn around and not able to see the sun or walk about; it is what I imagined I would look like and feel like if I were that hen.

They took it to an animal rescue, and place the hen on the ground. Just like rip van winkle the hen came back to life, clucking, pecking at the dirt, walking about. It impacted me deeply, to see this animal I mistook for dead behaving like a regular chicken as soon as they placed it on the dirt out in the sun. I know this is deeply personal and not applicable to everyone, but in that moment I realized that even simple animals have something like soul, or a sense of being and a personality if you prefer, that I recognized as important and similar to my own. I cried, finished the documentary, and then I haven't eaten an animal sense.

tl;dr animal suffering. I realized that I didn't believe in treating living, intelligent things that way and didn't want to be a part of it.

I suppose one of the reasons that I don't dwell on the poor treatment of animals is because I saw something very different. My grandparents on my father's side were farmers. The cows were petted and talked to and had a wonderful timber to wander through all day. They were calm and, as kids, my cousin and I spent hours in the barns and outside with all the animals there. The pigs could be a little dicey, especially the sows with new litters. But they also had the timber to roam in and grandpa would remove a sow from her litter so that we could hold and watch the piglets. Grandma kept chickens and other sorts of fowl. The chicks and young chickens lived in the apple orchard where the brooder house was. The hens had a big area in one building where I would walk through with grandma looking for eggs.

It was a small farm. They had enough livestock to feed themselves and to sell. And the milk truck coming was a big deal. Grandma sold eggs. I spent hours washing and gently placing eggs in cases while we talked. We were taught to respect the animals but we also were quite aware of their eventual fate.

While I know that the animals on the mega farms aren't getting that kind of treatment. I still support and respect the farmers that made up my family and the families around me when I was growing up.

We make our choices based on our experiences, I suppose. Between having farmers on one side of the family and deep sea fishermen on the other, I guess eating meat is here to stay in my world.

I imagined that kind of existence for my food too. I used to rationalize that cows, for example, where much better off in captivity as compared to the wild. If most meat was raised the way your parents did it I probably would not be a vegan, and animal welfare would be much better off. In my experience as a vegan though, I have come to see the symbiosis between animals and humans differently. For my part I don't think I will ever eat animals again regardless of treatment. However, the thing that bothers me most, then and still, is not that animals die, it is how they die and how they were allowed to live Sad .

(04-08-2014 04:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 04:19 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I chose to become a vegan for several reasons. The biggest motivator for me to switch, and the thing that continues to motivate me today, is the deplorable conditions animals are raised in and slaughtered in.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable personal decision to me. Reminds me of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle".

(04-08-2014 04:19 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When you imagine what egg laying hens go through - confined to a cage so small they can't stand up or turn around and not able to see the sun or walk about; it is what I imagined I would look like and feel like if I were that hen. ... I realized that I didn't believe in treating living, intelligent things that way and didn't want to be a part of it.

But I find it a bit naive and anthropocentric. You're already eating a shitload of insects whether you know it or not. Vegans are gonna have to deal with entomophagy if they want to maintain a consistent "do no harm" philosophy. And why do you think we are in some sorta privileged position to determine sentience anyway? I asked you in the other thread what makes you think the carrot doesn't scream just because you don't hear it? I wasn't being flippant.

I suppose it is true that a great deal of insects incidentally die, or even end up in food. I don't set out to eat them but I am sure I unwittingly consume them. I think the "minimize harm" principle applies here too. There are something I can control, and there are other things I can't. As a vegan, I don't really believe in eliminating death, I believe in minimizing harm. I think Hafnof has it right. Death is natural. When man causes death needlessly it is regrettable. For me anyway, mistreating animals is wrong.

As for the carrot bit... I don't know how to answer that. Carrots don't have brains, or central nervous systems. They don't feel pain, they don't feel pleasure. They take no comfort or fear in anything. I don't consider the feelings of plants for the same reasons I don't consider the feelings of bacteria my body destroys everyday, or that I purge when I use bleach to clean my bathroom. I don't believe plants can suffer, especially like animals do. I would much rather kill a plant than kill an animal, especially if choosing one might mean saving the other.

(04-08-2014 05:01 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  My understanding of veganism is not so much around food but around exploitation. For example, say we had lab cultured meat that didn't exploit any animals in its production... then that would be vegan. However, say we had milk from an industrial dairy farm that kept cows in feed lots and only let them out to draw their milk... that would not be vegan. An animal doesn't need to be killed to breach the definition of vegan. It just needs to be exploited. From there you can argue the boundaries. Does a subsistence farmer milking her free range cow in the morning constitute exploitation? Does owning a dog count, or a cat? Since animals cannot, as a rule, give informed consent the lines can be blurry. As such, the simplest practical definitions tend to come down to choices around food an animal products.

Thanks Hafnof for putting it that way. That is pretty close to the official "vegan party line" if you like. I have heard the rule "if the animal can't consent don't eat it". I think that analogy breaks down in some cases, but I think it embodies the spirit of what veganism is about. Vegans believe animals are like us, worthy of respect, with lives that have value, and whose well being matter.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: