vegan philosophy
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07-08-2014, 02:29 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 09:59 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 08:18 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  How do you know it's not a fact?
You'll notice what was said was that the person knows many atheists who only care about their own species.
It's not like it was claimed that most atheists only care about their own species.
Just sayin....

Methinks the guy was saying that *unless* you are vegan you're some kinda speciesist thug who wants to nom the sentient creatures of the world - hence Anjele's comment.

Of course, some of us *are* Evil_monster
Implied perhaps. Inferred even but not said.
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07-08-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
To address the point about whether carrots might experience pain: is there any reason, from a Darwinian point of view, to suppose that they do? For pain to be an evolutionary advantage, doesn't the organism in question need to have some means of escaping or otherwise deterring a predator when pain arises? I can't see why genes that cause a carrot to feel pain would persist in the carrot gene pool.

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07-08-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 02:41 PM)Seikilos Wrote:  To address the point about whether carrots might experience pain: is there any reason, from a Darwinian point of view, to suppose that they do? For pain to be an evolutionary advantage, doesn't the organism in question need to have some means of escaping or otherwise deterring a predator when pain arises? I can't see why genes that cause a carrot to feel pain would persist in the carrot gene pool.

First before I give a maybe of carrots feeling pain, stop calling evolution Darwinian. Dudes dead, and the evolution we accept now is past him besides natural and artificial selection. It is like calling modern gravity newtonism when the gravity we accept to day is different from newtons time. Alright now that this done,

Only way I can see carrots evolving the feeling of pain and not moving is if the released a gas that tasted awful to all that bit it when it feels this pain.

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07-08-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 03:20 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  ---
Only way I can see carrots evolving the feeling of pain and not moving is if the released a gas that tasted awful to all that bit it when it feels this pain.

Actually there are some plants that release gasses or secrete substances when disturbed to keep from being eaten before they can propagate.

Also... one of the oldest plants in the history of our planet is the fern.
The fern's cute little fiddlehead (baby fern) is edible up to a certain point of time - the time when it begins to become fecund - pubescence.
[Image: fiddleheads.jpg]
They are very delicious.
After the little fiddlehead fully unfurls, it can be quite deadly to some animals including humans.
[Image: fiddlehead-fern-westland-national-park-new-zealand.jpg]

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07-08-2014, 03:57 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 01:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It is, to a great extent, feels-based. Which is fine so far as that goes, but it means there's no rational argument to be made. To be preachy and sanctimonious about said naturally varying opinions is rather less endearing.

So are objections to eugenics and human-trafficking Drinking Beverage .
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07-08-2014, 03:57 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 03:42 PM)kim Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 03:20 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  ---
Only way I can see carrots evolving the feeling of pain and not moving is if the released a gas that tasted awful to all that bit it when it feels this pain.

Actually there are some plants that release gasses or secrete substances when disturbed to keep from being eaten before they can propagate.

Also... one of the oldest plants in the history of our planet is the fern.
The fern's cute little fiddlehead (baby fern) is edible up to a certain point of time - the time when it begins to become fecund - pubescence.
[Image: fiddleheads.jpg]
They are very delicious.
After the little fiddlehead fully unfurls, it can be quite deadly to some animals including humans.
[Image: fiddlehead-fern-westland-national-park-new-zealand.jpg]

Hm Consider . Wonder if it tastes any good.
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07-08-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 03:57 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 03:42 PM)kim Wrote:  Actually there are some plants that release gasses or secrete substances when disturbed to keep from being eaten before they can propagate.

Also... one of the oldest plants in the history of our planet is the fern.
The fern's cute little fiddlehead (baby fern) is edible up to a certain point of time - the time when it begins to become fecund - pubescence.
[Image: fiddleheads.jpg]
They are very delicious.
After the little fiddlehead fully unfurls, it can be quite deadly to some animals including humans.
[Image: fiddlehead-fern-westland-national-park-new-zealand.jpg]

Hm Consider . Wonder if it tastes any good.

I do too.

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07-08-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 01:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The dividing line between "well-treated" and "not well-treated" is arbitrary. The dividing line between "species that deserves to be well-treated" and "species that does not deserve to be well treated" is arbitary. It is, to a great extent, feels-based. Which is fine so far as that goes, but it means there's no rational argument to be made. To be preachy and sanctimonious about said naturally varying opinions is rather less endearing.

I think... the line isn't that arbitrary. We can definitely say that bacteria aren't really gonna give a shit if you eat them. We can definitely say that given the choice a cow doesn't wanna get chomped. We can also pretty much say that battery farming in its worst incarnations is a definite evil, if only from the point of view that it's gonna produce low quality meat.

Animals have highly developed nervous systems - dogs, cows, rats - all of them IMO (I don't know, so only IMO) have emotions and feelings, not developed to as high a degree as us, but they're there or thereabouts.

As such, yeah, IMO, there is something to be said for veganism - at least its an interesting topic of conversation to me. I don't know if I could pull it off. Also, MT and the other guy have neither of them been preachy at all that I can see. The only time when he said why he was a vegan was when I specifically asked him.

I dunno what it is but... somehow vegans, vegetarians etc seem to get a bit of a bad rap... I wish to fuck people would just calm down and eat a carrot or something.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-08-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 04:05 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 03:57 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Hm Consider . Wonder if it tastes any good.

I do too.

Uh.. I believe I noted between the two photos ... they are very delicious.
Only the fiddleheads are edible and quite yummy.

I know; you were distracted by the pretty pictures. Shy

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07-08-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: vegan philosophy
(07-08-2014 04:05 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 01:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The dividing line between "well-treated" and "not well-treated" is arbitrary. The dividing line between "species that deserves to be well-treated" and "species that does not deserve to be well treated" is arbitary. It is, to a great extent, feels-based. Which is fine so far as that goes, but it means there's no rational argument to be made. To be preachy and sanctimonious about said naturally varying opinions is rather less endearing.

I think... the line isn't that arbitrary. We can definitely say that bacteria aren't really gonna give a shit if you eat them. We can definitely say that given the choice a cow doesn't wanna get chomped. We can also pretty much say that battery farming in its worst incarnations is a definite evil, if only from the point of view that it's gonna produce low quality meat.

Animals have highly developed nervous systems - dogs, cows, rats - all of them IMO (I don't know, so only IMO) have emotions and feelings, not developed to as high a degree as us, but they're there or thereabouts.

As such, yeah, IMO, there is something to be said for veganism - at least its an interesting topic of conversation to me. I don't know if I could pull it off. Also, MT and the other guy have neither of them been preachy at all that I can see. The only time when he said why he was a vegan was when I specifically asked him.

I dunno what it is but... somehow vegans, vegetarians etc seem to get a bit of a bad rap... I wish to fuck people would just calm down and eat a carrot or something.

Morondog I could kiss you Wink
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