we were founded on Christianity!
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18-03-2016, 01:38 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(17-03-2016 09:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 01:51 PM)theophilus Wrote:  The American government might not have been specifically founded on Christianity but it was the product of a culture that was shaped by Christianity. The prohibition of an establishment of religion is often interpreted to mean that any expression of religion by the government is prohibited. Actually it means that the government can't make a specific denomination the established church. Many of the colonies did have such official churches; for example the Anglican church was the official church of Virginian and I believe the Congregational church was the official church of Massachusetts. The constitution does not prohibit the government favoring Christianity as a whole, although court decisions have in effect imposed such a prohibition.

The Constitution prohibits the establishment of any religion; it is not talking about just Christianity.

And the authors of the Constitution were gentlemen of The Enlightenment as much if not more than they were Christian.

I would use the word religion, she would use Christianity. Then she tried flip it on me and said I brought Christianity into the conversation. I told her that her saying we were founded on Christianity is what prompted me to respond.
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18-03-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(17-03-2016 02:00 PM)DerFish Wrote:  Are you aware of why Mormons are considered to not be Christians? Once upon a time there was a society of all Christian churches formed. They kept statistics like baseball stats. Each year they published who won in each category. One was new conversions, one was the number of missionaries, another was how much the member churches were collecting in their begging operations among their members. There were more than that. But the Mormons won in almost every category every year for the first 4 years, so like some reality show they were voted off the island! If ya can't beat 'em run them off!

Just when did this alleged society exist and what was it called? I have never heard of a society like this.

The reason Mormons aren't considered to be Christians is that they reject the major Christian teachings and worship a false god and a false Jesus. Here is a good place to learn how Christians view them:

https://carm.org/mormonism

(17-03-2016 09:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Constitution prohibits the establishment of any religion; it is not talking about just Christianity.

And the authors of the Constitution were gentlemen of The Enlightenment as much if not more than they were Christian.

If you study the history of the time you will find that establishment met establishing a specific denomination as an official church, not giving Christianity itself an official status. Many of the people who wrote the Constitution weren't Christians but they lived in a culture that was Christians and they adopted many of its values.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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18-03-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(18-03-2016 08:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 02:00 PM)DerFish Wrote:  Are you aware of why Mormons are considered to not be Christians? Once upon a time there was a society of all Christian churches formed. They kept statistics like baseball stats. Each year they published who won in each category. One was new conversions, one was the number of missionaries, another was how much the member churches were collecting in their begging operations among their members. There were more than that. But the Mormons won in almost every category every year for the first 4 years, so like some reality show they were voted off the island! If ya can't beat 'em run them off!

Just when did this alleged society exist and what was it called? I have never heard of a society like this.

The reason Mormons aren't considered to be Christians is that they reject the major Christian teachings and worship a false god and a false Jesus. Here is a good place to learn how Christians view them:

https://carm.org/mormonism

(17-03-2016 09:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Constitution prohibits the establishment of any religion; it is not talking about just Christianity.

And the authors of the Constitution were gentlemen of The Enlightenment as much if not more than they were Christian.

If you study the history of the time you will find that establishment met establishing a specific denomination as an official church, not giving Christianity itself an official status. Many of the people who wrote the Constitution weren't Christians but they lived in a culture that was Christians and they adopted many of its values.
As to Mormons, who is to decide which God is false and which Christ is false and what are the qualifications they are being measured against. If you wish I can find out the name of said Association of churches. The Seventh day Adventists have been threatened with expulsion since they don't believe in hell and don't worship on Sundays as normal Christians do. They too are winning a disproportionate number of first places. My brother is a preacher in their church and he'll be able to tell me the name of the organization. PM me if you are seriously interested in knowing more.
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18-03-2016, 09:31 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
No we were not.

But, even if I agreed, it is still a horrible argument. You have literally 10s of thousands of sub sects of Christianity alone. Nobody wants to see that that causes the same "I am right" problem Sunni's and Shiites have in the Middle East, and that the only THING that prevents us from looking like that is GOVERNMENT NEUTRALITY on the issue of religion.

Right wing Evangelicals hate Obama, so when they say "Christian Nation" what they really mean is "my sect of Christianity". But liberal Baptists who voted for Obama use the same holy book the right does.

It took over a decade from the Declaration of Independence to the signing of the Constitution, and in that period the founders fought over how religion would be represented and protected. Jefferson's Virginia Religious Freedom act, is what Madison modeled the First Amendment on. There is NO mention of Christianity, or Jesus or Bible in the entire Constitution. It only says in the First Amendment EVERYONE has the freedom of religion. That was never meant to social pecking order.

Thomas Jefferson, "Thomas Jefferson — 'I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."

Thus, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof"

And the oath of office "No religious test".

No, that was not a call for a godless government, just that you COULD NOT include or exclude participation on the article of religion. Telling a theist there is no alpha male group and our government CANNOT play favorites is not a ban on religion. It is merely an anti monopoly concept. Basically it forces ALL sects of ALL religions to do one of two things.

1. Agree to let everyone have access to the venue.

2. OR, keep it neutral and leave it at the door.

They were wise enough to understand that most would end up leaving it at the door. But, when they do not, because of the other part of the First Amendment, "to petition the government for a redress of grievance", would allow minorities to argue in a court, "hey, if they get to do it, I get to do it". Or, "If they won't let me do it, you have to tell them to stop as well".

THAT is not a ban on religion, anymore than if you had two kids, and had to tell one, "Share, or I take the toy away".

Then you add to it Jefferson's "wall"

And Barbary Treaty article 11, signed without dissent by both houses of congress, "As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" signed into law by President and founder John Adams, June 10th 1797.

BUT, lets pretend none of thee above happened. Still does not make mixing government and religion good, and it only takes looking at the theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran, and the divisions of Sunnis and Shiites to know, "Christian Nation" is a bad idea as well.

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18-03-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(18-03-2016 09:31 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  BUT, lets pretend none of thee above happened. Still does not make mixing government and religion good, and it only takes looking at the theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran, and the divisions of Sunnis and Shiites to know, "Christian Nation" is a bad idea as well.

That only proves that Muslim Nation is a bad idea.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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18-03-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
And the history of Supreme Court on the issue of religion, it is a myth that atheists only use the concepts above to maintain Jefferson's wall.

Religious people HAVE filed grievances to the court to get other sects to stop monopolizing public venues. That is not just a tool atheists use to be mean to theists, it also prevents say a baptist from being subject to public venue monopolies in a majority Catholic location, or a Catholic being subject to a Mormon monopoly of a venue say in Utah.

"Secular" does not mean Stalin's Russia. That is a cold war slur and a myth.

Secular merely means "neutral" and "no pecking order". THAT is what protects freedom of religion, not religion itself. Every given sect of every religion believed in America has it's own ideas and since they are so different, the more you infect politics with it, the more divisive it becomes.

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18-03-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(18-03-2016 09:35 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 09:31 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  BUT, lets pretend none of thee above happened. Still does not make mixing government and religion good, and it only takes looking at the theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran, and the divisions of Sunnis and Shiites to know, "Christian Nation" is a bad idea as well.

That only proves that Muslim Nation is a bad idea.

Bullshit. If we suddenly stripped America of the constitution, don't hand me any crap that those, especially on the right, would not have Muslims or Gays or atheists or liberal Christians fined, arrested or worse. TED Cruz was introduced by a man calling for the death of gay and used his Christian God to do so. NO AND FUCK YOU!

Again, we are a NEUTRAL nation that protects EVERYONE. OUR laws are not ripped out of the bible. If you want to blame anyone for not using the word "bible" in the Constitution, blame the founders. Me personally, I think they got it right.

There is no social pecking order based on religion that allows our government to favor one over all others. You don't have to go away, but you do not own the idea of what it means to be an American or a citizen.

The west became civil in spite of Christianity, not because of it. EVEN the bible contains very horrible depictions of religious tribalism that people STILL use today to deny gays rights, to justify bigotry and sexism. It isn't that all Christians interpret the bible the same way, but there STILL are those who use it to justify being dicks to their fellow humans. THAT is what makes keeping government neutral so important.

There is no special privilege given to Christianity in the Constitution that makes them top of the chain making all others mere house guests or pets. We are an open society, not a theocracy. EVERYONE IS EQUAL.

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18-03-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(18-03-2016 08:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 02:00 PM)DerFish Wrote:  Are you aware of why Mormons are considered to not be Christians? Once upon a time there was a society of all Christian churches formed. They kept statistics like baseball stats. Each year they published who won in each category. One was new conversions, one was the number of missionaries, another was how much the member churches were collecting in their begging operations among their members. There were more than that. But the Mormons won in almost every category every year for the first 4 years, so like some reality show they were voted off the island! If ya can't beat 'em run them off!

Just when did this alleged society exist and what was it called? I have never heard of a society like this.

The reason Mormons aren't considered to be Christians is that they reject the major Christian teachings and worship a false god and a false Jesus. Here is a good place to learn how Christians view them:

https://carm.org/mormonism

(17-03-2016 09:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Constitution prohibits the establishment of any religion; it is not talking about just Christianity.

And the authors of the Constitution were gentlemen of The Enlightenment as much if not more than they were Christian.

If you study the history of the time you will find that establishment met establishing a specific denomination as an official church, not giving Christianity itself an official status. Many of the people who wrote the Constitution weren't Christians but they lived in a culture that was Christians and they adopted many of its values.

You are wrong. It does not say 'denomination' nor 'Christianity', it says 'religion'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-03-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
Thank you very much, she refuses to engage me now. I find it to be very funny. She also has it in her head its all my opinion too.

My friend was complaining to be a while back about how she thinks she is right about everything and tries to bull doze others down. I think she met her match and then some. We never debated before like this so I'm sure this took her by surprise. She closed her mind to what I had to say long AGO however I didn't do it for her. I did it because its on Facebook and there are a lot of people reading including her 4 kids who are a lot older. I even told her why I was doing it too. Honestly I could careless what she believes but when false information is being circulated as true I have to correct it.

I'm wondering what my friend will have to say about this. No I'm not worried I'll lose her we've been friends for over 20 years I'm her rock because her family are bulldozers like her sister. She is the weak one and I help her. I try to make her stronger towards her family but its very slow going.
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18-03-2016, 03:59 PM
RE: we were founded on Christianity!
(18-03-2016 08:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 02:00 PM)DerFish Wrote:  Are you aware of why Mormons are considered to not be Christians? Once upon a time there was a society of all Christian churches formed. They kept statistics like baseball stats. Each year they published who won in each category. One was new conversions, one was the number of missionaries, another was how much the member churches were collecting in their begging operations among their members. There were more than that. But the Mormons won in almost every category every year for the first 4 years, so like some reality show they were voted off the island! If ya can't beat 'em run them off!

Just when did this alleged society exist and what was it called? I have never heard of a society like this.

The reason Mormons aren't considered to be Christians is that they reject the major Christian teachings and worship a false god and a false Jesus. Here is a good place to learn how Christians view them:

https://carm.org/mormonism

(17-03-2016 09:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Constitution prohibits the establishment of any religion; it is not talking about just Christianity.

And the authors of the Constitution were gentlemen of The Enlightenment as much if not more than they were Christian.

If you study the history of the time you will find that establishment met establishing a specific denomination as an official church, not giving Christianity itself an official status. Many of the people who wrote the Constitution weren't Christians but they lived in a culture that was Christians and they adopted many of its values.

No and just NO, that is a bullshit watered down and attempt to justify a social pecking order. THERE IS NO religious pecking order favoring only Christians of any sub sect, or saying only they could establish their sub sects respectively.

The first amendment DOES NOT SAY, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, so long as it is some sect of Christianity".....THEY MEANT ANY SECT OF ALL RELIGIONS, NOT JUST CHRISTIANITY BUT INCLUDING CHRISTIANITY.

JOHN ADAMS SIGNED THE BARBARY TREATY ARTICLE 11.....

"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"........

Conservative Catholics and liberal Catholics, Conservative Baptist and liberal Baptists, Mormons, Pentecostals, LDS, Amish and Quakers and Unitarians are all SUB SECTS of the Christian religion.

The Constitution does not favor Christianity over other religions PERIOD!

You are justifying a religious pecking order, STOP LYING ABOUT THAT.

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