what if our current views are wrong?
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14-01-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
Went down that road before dude..

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14-01-2013, 09:52 AM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
(14-01-2013 09:29 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Went down that road before dude..
Yeah this shit gets old.
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14-01-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
(14-01-2013 08:19 AM)Nappa Wrote:  Here you are speaking of physical bodies and personality, when I am
still referring to consciousness. And I might be the only other person
here who understands what EEG is without having to look it up.
Here you bring up a mind/body dichotomy that is not justified.

For example, let me pose a similar question: what happens to our digestion when we die? Ever think about that one? I mean, our digestive system is responsible for turning solid food to energy and this ceases when we die....but other than the above example, I don't know of anyone who seriously asks the question, "What happens to our digestion when we die?".

Likewise, as our digestive system converts solid matter to energy, or nervous system converts sensory inputs to meaningful abstractions - and this we call a conciousness. And, like digestion which is a product of the functioning of the organs of our digestive system, or conciousness is also a function of the organs comprising our nervous system. There is nothing magic about it.
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14-01-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
Hey, Nappa.

As a social constructivist, I know one thing. We are wrong Cool

I salute your attempt to deconstruct such a powerfull and naturalised ideological position. I wish you luck on your journey.

If you want to see something remarkable that touches on the idea of deconstructing the notion of the individual, separated by borders from the rest of creation, watch the TED talk called A Stroke of Insight. A truly insightful and memorable one.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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14-01-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
Quote:
Quote: (Today 12:19 PM)Nappa Wrote: But
what if we're not separate? what if we're whole? Instead of going
through the process of being born and dying, what if we ,the whole, were
consistent?

And what reason do you have to support that group of assumptions?



There appears to be no linking force between our brains, at least in the manner you seem to be speaking of.
I watched an interesting documentary this weekend about ants. In an ant colony there's clearly some linking force making up a "collective consciousness", a consistent whole. An ant's lifespan is only about 60 to 90 days, however the colony continues with each new member fulfilling their role. Indeed, all across the animal kingdom similar phenomena can be observed : salmon know to return to their place of birth, birds migrate etc.

Anyway, the interesting thing about the ant documentary was that a certain species, orginally from S.America and that has recently spread to Europe, has developed a new behaviour (assimilating other colonies rather than combating them). Furthermore, this behaviour seems to be spreading, somehow being learnt by other colonies. I've also heard, but have no proof, that cattle can learn not to cross a cattle grid from others within the herd, without ever having been individually confronted with a cattle grid.

So, if animals have this capability, why not humans ?
[No I don't have any evidence to support this idea : this is the Philosophy Thread, so some poetic licence is allowed...]
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14-01-2013, 01:53 PM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
Funny how "poetic license" always seems to be required to make that last final stretch, hmm?

Having said that, it's an interesting thought. I once pondered whether all life on Earth was connected by a sort of hive-mind at one point - perhaps when we first began to brew in the primordial ooze. Then, as we evolved over time, that connection has slowly drifted further and further apart. But today, every now and then, the long-lost gene reawakens in the rare individual who can "read minds" or sense the emotional state of others who aren't in the same vicinity as them.

Of course, we have zero evidence for this. It's an interesting thought, though.

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14-01-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
(14-01-2013 08:19 AM)Nappa Wrote:  And I might be the only other person here who understands what EEG is without having to look it up.

Really? You're that superior to the rest of us here? EEGs are not that special, that uncommon, or that difficult to understand. Heck, I scrambled three of 'em fer breakfast just this morning.

But back to your original post, and the title, I say, "so what?"

Which is basically what you said. So what?

You propose an interesting thought experiment. What if we're all one big cosmic consciousness that, for a short while, gets subdivided up and hangs out in our individual flesh? So what?

We cannot at this time detect this consciousness, sense it, feel it, react to it, or interact with it in any meaningful way. Furthermore, this consciousness doesn't seem to interact with our world from beyond, from before being born or after dying

Even if we knew, absolutely, that your thought experiment was the real working model for consciousness, we seem entirely unable to do anything with that knowledge. We would be exactly the same as we are now, just with a little bit of very abstract extra knowledge about consciousness.

So until you can postulate a way in which we might benefit from this knowledge, from this consciousness idea of yours, some way to use that model so that we can enhance and enrich our lives in some meaningful way, it's just a thought experiment - every one of our lives will proceed exactly the same regardless of whether your notion is real or not.

That's what.

A more interesting question might be something like this: What if we have an eternal consciousness beyond the grasp of any of us, but then one day an evil scientist learns how to tap that eternal consciousness and uses it to know everything, see everything, and even enter our individual minds and control us - how would we deal with him? (Hint: one answer might be to let Lord Rahl protect us).

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15-01-2013, 02:03 AM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
(14-01-2013 01:53 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Funny how "poetic license" always seems to be required to make that last final stretch, hmm?

Having said that, it's an interesting thought. I once pondered whether all life on Earth was connected by a sort of hive-mind at one point - perhaps when we first began to brew in the primordial ooze. Then, as we evolved over time, that connection has slowly drifted further and further apart. But today, every now and then, the long-lost gene reawakens in the rare individual who can "read minds" or sense the emotional state of others who aren't in the same vicinity as them.

Of course, we have zero evidence for this. It's an interesting thought, though.
When I read this all I could think of is how much I hate English in academia.

Sounds to me like the poster should read more into pantheism. I'm not going to say that I know that the people that adhere to this idea are wrong, but I will say that if they are right that it doesn't make much of a difference. The 'science' that supports this idea is weak however, and full of the same kind of nutter logic that propels all types of theism.

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15-01-2013, 02:22 AM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
(14-01-2013 08:19 AM)Nappa Wrote:  
(14-01-2013 06:24 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Lets just run with this for a minute, see where it goes.


It is fairly evident that humans and other creatures are born, from one process or another. And we do die. We can observe both actions. I can put a dying man in an EEG and we can watch the brain stop functioning. Just in the same way as we can observe insemination, development and ultimately the birth of a baby. A large percentage of women even feel giving birth, would you believe it? Shocking .

Individuality is evidenced just as easily, get ten random people off the street and hand them a standardised opinion poll they will all have varying opinions, simply the ten people themselves show they are individuals, unless you got ten complete clones (cloned perfectly right down the to memories and personality). People have had concepts of individuality ever since it was recognised that person X is not the same as person Z, religions simply monopolized an explanation as to the phenomenon, long before studies of the mind and brain emerged such as psychology and neurosciences.


And what reason do you have to support that group of assumptions?

There appears to be no linking force between our brains, at least in the manner you seem to be speaking of.


Even if current models of life, death and individuality are incorrect, what do you suggest would be their replacement?
Here you are speaking of physical bodies and personality, when I am still referring to consciousness. And I might be the only other person here who understands what EEG is without having to look it up.

As for all this, well this is just a practice of 'trying' to think outside what I 'know' Not gonna lie to you I'm having a hard time myself finding an alternative if there is one Tongue
If your real point was on the individual & consciousness aspect, you left that unclear and subtle. You didn't hit on that until late in the post which made this seem very bizarre on a first glance as if you wanted to debate the physical form idea.

I'm not sure who you mean by "our" as there are various views on this topic that a not accepted by all. There is a religious view and a very "reductionist" (I use for a lack of a better term) view that consciousness is merely a function of the brain.

There are believes not separate from atheist views that challenge that notion. There are notions of some scientific inquires to see if it's possibly true, but the evidence right now doesn't add up quite in that direction. Then there is the Buddhist views which often dismiss the individual.

There is another group of those trying to claim consciousness is outside the body, and overall a higher plan than physical bodies. That's part of Ken Wilbur's Integral Theory, which I've had people talk to me about from some philosophical discussion groups. It may be worth looking into if you are interested in the field. When I looked into it, I saw them making a case that went too far into believing without evidence and using I.D. arguments like irreducibly complexity of the eye.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-01-2013, 05:18 PM
RE: what if our current views are wrong?
(14-01-2013 10:20 AM)Julius Wrote:  Here you bring up a mind/body dichotomy that is not justified.

For example, let me pose a similar question: what happens to our digestion when we die? Ever think about that one? I mean, our digestive system is responsible for turning solid food to energy and this ceases when we die....but other than the above example, I don't know of anyone who seriously asks the question, "What happens to our digestion when we die?".

Likewise, as our digestive system converts solid matter to energy, or nervous system converts sensory inputs to meaningful abstractions - and this we call a conciousness. And, like digestion which is a product of the functioning of the organs of our digestive system, or conciousness is also a function of the organs comprising our nervous system. There is nothing magic about it.
This. The way I think of it is it's kind of like the internet-special-fucking-snowflake syndrome writ large. People consider their consciousness totally separate and more special than other bodily functions, just like they consider humans totally different and separate and more special than other animals. That's why they think consciousness and membership in their species makes them immortal.

I think of it as similar to a white supremacist's point of view. Since he's white, white must be better than other races, everybody else is inferior by the accident of their birth. Likewise, believers in souls think since they are self-aware, they must have a soul and be different, special, more important than other animals (rather than it being an emergent feature of a larger brain). And since they're so fucking special, they also don't die when they die, instead, they live forever.

As for the OP, I think rational people just try to do the best they can with the information they can access. People have arrived at their current views by observation. I observe that people seem to be born and die and not come back, so that's my best guess for how shit works.
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