why is male suicide going up?
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25-04-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(24-04-2016 08:43 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 05:40 PM)Dom Wrote:  I don't have a horse in this race, I just started getting annoyed with people asking for documentation when someone states an OPINION. What do you want as proof that something is my opinion, a brain print out?

No, I'd be happy with reason. I didn't see anything that indicated that her statements was nothing more than an opinion, but if she is willing to say that it is her baseless opinion, with no reason, so be it. The skeptics mantra should be "Question Everything". If someone is going to spew something out like that, I'm gonna call them on it. If she has good reason to hold that opinion, I'm all ears. Maybe she'll convince me too. If it is true we should be looking into finding a solution for that as well, but I do not think she is even remotely close to the truth.

POV = point of view = opinion.

Regarding that opinion, if all you do is keep up with current events, (and that's all I do in this case, I am not interested enough to spend time on it) you will hear repeatedly that the school shooters are young white males living in social isolation. I don't recall hearing of any popular kids shooting up their schools. So, it's possible sexual frustration feeds into this. Probably if you ask random people many will say that. So I bet that's pretty much public opinion. All you can do about public opinion is disprove it. Not every thread here is based on science and not everything people think or say is researched, there are not enough hours in the day. What you do with such statements is up to you, in real life you won't be able to motivate people to research every opinion of theirs, either.

Some threads are just musings and invite other musings, in agreement or opposition. If you want something useful to come from it, introduce some facts.

Really, the only reason I chimed into this conversation is that the "citation" request is increasingly used by some to avoid doing research themselves. There is no burden of proof on an opinion. Only on things presented as fact. Nobody is required to research every thought they have. We would have either no posts, or no time to post, if we did.

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25-04-2016, 09:11 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 06:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  Really, the only reason I chimed into this conversation is that the "citation" request is increasingly used by some to avoid doing research themselves. There is no burden of proof on an opinion. Only on things presented as fact. Nobody is required to research every thought they have. We would have either no posts, or no time to post, if we did.

Wait, what?!

Opinions can't be touched because they're just opinions?

What if the opinion expressed is just wrong or crazy? Like when people claim god exists based solely on their opinion, discussion just stops then?

It's been my experience people usually don't hold an opinion they don't believe is true. Unless they're making a joke, in that case you come back and say "I was joking" and apologize.

I've had my opinion challenged many times and quite often after doing a little research or listening csrefully to what others have to say, I changed my opinion because I found my thinking was flawed.


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25-04-2016, 10:12 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 09:11 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 06:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  Really, the only reason I chimed into this conversation is that the "citation" request is increasingly used by some to avoid doing research themselves. There is no burden of proof on an opinion. Only on things presented as fact. Nobody is required to research every thought they have. We would have either no posts, or no time to post, if we did.

Wait, what?!

Opinions can't be touched because they're just opinions?

What if the opinion expressed is just wrong or crazy? Like when people claim god exists based solely on their opinion, discussion just stops then?

It's been my experience people usually don't hold an opinion they don't believe is true. Unless they're making a joke, in that case you come back and say "I was joking" and apologize.

I've had my opinion challenged many times and quite often after doing a little research or listening csrefully to what others have to say, I changed my opinion because I found my thinking was flawed.

No,no, no! That is not what I said.

I said the demand that the holder of an opinion provide scientific proof, even though they keep asserting that it is just an opinion, makes no sense.

I walk in and say " plumbers probably wear purple underpants" because I have seen several that do. Someone asks for scientific proof. Well, firstly, there is none. Secondly, I don't have the time to scour the web for hours to determine if there is some. So I state that this is just an opinion.

Now, you can engage in pages of asking me for scientific proof and complaining that I don't provide scientific proof. The basis for this is that I said it, so I have the burden of proof.

Firstly, the thread has now deteriorated into nagging for proof, explaining that it's just an opinion, nagging for proof, explaining that it's just an opinion, ad infinitum. It's going nowhere.

Or, you can say: "I am a plumber (or I have seen a plumber or whatever), and the underwear is pink with purple polka dots". That has to cause me to change whatever impression I had.

Which conversation is more productive?

"Burden of proof" applies to stated facts. Facts should be proven when called on.

Opinions have no scientific base, they are impressions. There is no fucking proof.

When you have someone stating that they are just voicing an opinion, over and over, and someone asking for scientific proof, over and over, that is not a conversation anymore.

This is something I have noticed a lot in many threads here (No, I am not going to provide proof. Tongue) It is an effective conversation killer. (Not providing proof for this either!) Instead of actual criticism or offering alternate views, people just ask for proof, over and over and over again.

It annoys me, mostly because the topic would have been interesting but now is stalled.

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25-04-2016, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2016 10:49 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 10:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 09:11 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Wait, what?!

Opinions can't be touched because they're just opinions?

What if the opinion expressed is just wrong or crazy? Like when people claim god exists based solely on their opinion, discussion just stops then?

It's been my experience people usually don't hold an opinion they don't believe is true. Unless they're making a joke, in that case you come back and say "I was joking" and apologize.

I've had my opinion challenged many times and quite often after doing a little research or listening csrefully to what others have to say, I changed my opinion because I found my thinking was flawed.

No,no, no! That is not what I said.

I said the demand that the holder of an opinion provide scientific proof, even though they keep asserting that it is just an opinion, makes no sense.

I walk in and say " plumbers probably wear purple underpants" because I have seen several that do. Someone asks for scientific proof. Well, firstly, there is none. Secondly, I don't have the time to scour the web for hours to determine if there is some. So I state that this is just an opinion.

Now, you can engage in pages of asking me for scientific proof and complaining that I don't provide scientific proof. The basis for this is that I said it, so I have the burden of proof.

Firstly, the thread has now deteriorated into nagging for proof, explaining that it's just an opinion, nagging for proof, explaining that it's just an opinion, ad infinitum. It's going nowhere.

Or, you can say: "I am a plumber (or I have seen a plumber or whatever), and the underwear is pink with purple polka dots". That has to cause me to change whatever impression I had.

Which conversation is more productive?

"Burden of proof" applies to stated facts. Facts should be proven when called on.

Opinions have no scientific base, they are impressions. There is no fucking proof.

When you have someone stating that they are just voicing an opinion, over and over, and someone asking for scientific proof, over and over, that is not a conversation anymore.

This is something I have noticed a lot in many threads here (No, I am not going to provide proof. Tongue) It is an effective conversation killer. (Not providing proof for this either!) Instead of actual criticism or offering alternate views, people just ask for proof, over and over and over again.

It annoys me, mostly because the topic would have been interesting but now is stalled.

I agree it's annoying because the topic IS NOT about mass murder/suicide it's simply asking why the suicide rate for men is rising -- which has been demonstrated that in some places of the world it truly is.

Unless someone was trying to imply that the only young men committing suicide are the ones who kill others before killing themselves, because they can't get laid or are antisocial or whatever...

Considering the current rate of suicide (according to the world health organization one death every 15 minutes). I'd say that is a specious remark to make. It's misleading and honestly I can't fathom why it was mentioned at all.

Now you brought up elder suicide, which is underreported -- I guess few people don't really want to know that dad/mom or grandpa/grandma offed themselves. But if those deaths were properly recorded the raw data on suicide might become skewed. It might show that suicide rates for women have not actually decreased, but remained a constant.

I was going to bring up earlier in this thread if DNRs or hospice being an acceptable form of suicide, but then I felt that was off topic to the discussion.
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25-04-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 10:44 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 10:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  No,no, no! That is not what I said.

I said the demand that the holder of an opinion provide scientific proof, even though they keep asserting that it is just an opinion, makes no sense.

I walk in and say " plumbers probably wear purple underpants" because I have seen several that do. Someone asks for scientific proof. Well, firstly, there is none. Secondly, I don't have the time to scour the web for hours to determine if there is some. So I state that this is just an opinion.

Now, you can engage in pages of asking me for scientific proof and complaining that I don't provide scientific proof. The basis for this is that I said it, so I have the burden of proof.

Firstly, the thread has now deteriorated into nagging for proof, explaining that it's just an opinion, nagging for proof, explaining that it's just an opinion, ad infinitum. It's going nowhere.

Or, you can say: "I am a plumber (or I have seen a plumber or whatever), and the underwear is pink with purple polka dots". That has to cause me to change whatever impression I had.

Which conversation is more productive?

"Burden of proof" applies to stated facts. Facts should be proven when called on.

Opinions have no scientific base, they are impressions. There is no fucking proof.

When you have someone stating that they are just voicing an opinion, over and over, and someone asking for scientific proof, over and over, that is not a conversation anymore.

This is something I have noticed a lot in many threads here (No, I am not going to provide proof. Tongue) It is an effective conversation killer. (Not providing proof for this either!) Instead of actual criticism or offering alternate views, people just ask for proof, over and over and over again.

It annoys me, mostly because the topic would have been interesting but now is stalled.

I agree it's annoying because the topic IS NOT about mass murder/suicide it's simply asking why the suicide rate for men is rising -- which has been demonstrated that in some places of the world it truly is.

Unless someone was trying to imply that the only young men committing suicide are the ones who kill others before killing themselves, because they can't get laid or are antisocial or whatever...

Considering the current rate of suicide I'd say that is a specious remark to make. It's misleading and honestly I can't fathom why it was mentioned at all.

Now you brought up elder suicide, which is underreported -- I guess few people don't really want to know that dad/mom or grandpa/grandma offed themselves. But if those deaths were properly recorded the raw data on suicide might become skewed. It might show that suicide rates for women have not actually decreased, but remained a constant.

I was going to bring up earlier in this thread if DNRs or hospice being an acceptable form of suicide, but then I felt that was off topic to the discussion.

Ok, now we are back in the discussion. Smile

There were several stats given and none agreed.

I think not just elderly suicide is under reported, I think all are. Most of them are accidents - accidental overdose, accidental shooting - when labeled as such they don't get picked up in the stats.

People are loathe to discuss suicide, feel very strongly about it and it has been a taboo for a very long time. Plus you have trouble collecting insurance, and public shame and blame if your kid did it. Or your mom. Or your husband.

I don't think we will find the answers to the questions posed in this thread anytime soon. First we have to be able to see actual facts, and the ones that exist are all corrupt.

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25-04-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 10:52 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 10:44 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I agree it's annoying because the topic IS NOT about mass murder/suicide it's simply asking why the suicide rate for men is rising -- which has been demonstrated that in some places of the world it truly is.

Unless someone was trying to imply that the only young men committing suicide are the ones who kill others before killing themselves, because they can't get laid or are antisocial or whatever...

Considering the current rate of suicide I'd say that is a specious remark to make. It's misleading and honestly I can't fathom why it was mentioned at all.

Now you brought up elder suicide, which is underreported -- I guess few people don't really want to know that dad/mom or grandpa/grandma offed themselves. But if those deaths were properly recorded the raw data on suicide might become skewed. It might show that suicide rates for women have not actually decreased, but remained a constant.

I was going to bring up earlier in this thread if DNRs or hospice being an acceptable form of suicide, but then I felt that was off topic to the discussion.

Ok, now we are back in the discussion. Smile

There were several stats given and none agreed.

I think not just elderly suicide is under reported, I think all are. Most of them are accidents - accidental overdose, accidental shooting - when labeled as such they don't get picked up in the stats.

People are loathe to discuss suicide, feel very strongly about it and it has been a taboo for a very long time. Plus you have trouble collecting insurance, and public shame and blame if your kid did it. Or your mom. Or your husband.

I don't think we will find the answers to the questions posed in this thread anytime soon. First we have to be able to see actual facts, and the ones that exist are all corrupt.

Well the statistics on the ones we do know are suicide and reported as 35,000 a year is a start (WHO). From there the numbers would just rise if you add in all the ones that aren't reported. That would be a staggering figure. Maybe if we could have more honest numbers something more would be done to prevent it (in some cases) and the stigma might be lessened, in cases of the elderly or terminal illness.

But it still doesn't address why in some places the suicide rate for men is rising. It's actually the "why" I'm most curious about and it could simply be that men are treated incorrectly or maybe they're more likely to resist treatment.

One thing is for sure in the US, our mental health care is quite lackluster.


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25-04-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 11:23 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 10:52 AM)Dom Wrote:  Ok, now we are back in the discussion. Smile

There were several stats given and none agreed.

I think not just elderly suicide is under reported, I think all are. Most of them are accidents - accidental overdose, accidental shooting - when labeled as such they don't get picked up in the stats.

People are loathe to discuss suicide, feel very strongly about it and it has been a taboo for a very long time. Plus you have trouble collecting insurance, and public shame and blame if your kid did it. Or your mom. Or your husband.

I don't think we will find the answers to the questions posed in this thread anytime soon. First we have to be able to see actual facts, and the ones that exist are all corrupt.

Well the statistics on the ones we do know are suicide and reported as 35,000 a year is a start (WHO). From there the numbers would just rise if you add in all the ones that aren't reported. That would be a staggering figure. Maybe if we could have more honest numbers something more would be done to prevent it (in some cases) and the stigma might be lessened, in cases of the elderly or terminal illness.

But it still doesn't address why in some places the suicide rate for men is rising. It's actually the "why" I'm most curious about and it could simply be that men are treated incorrectly or maybe they're more likely to resist treatment.

One thing is for sure in the US, our mental health care is quite lackluster.

I'd like to think that, if it were actually the case that male suicide is on the rise (I am not sold on this), the cause would be that the genders are becoming less defined. By that I mean that it is becoming acceptable for males to have a soft side, and for females to have a hard side. So more males may feel free to accept that they are not always strong...

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25-04-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 11:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  I'd like to think that, if it were actually the case that male suicide is on the rise (I am not sold on this), the cause would be that the genders are becoming less defined. By that I mean that it is becoming acceptable for males to have a soft side, and for females to have a hard side. So more males may feel free to accept that they are not always strong...

So would this soft side hinder males?

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25-04-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 11:54 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 11:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  I'd like to think that, if it were actually the case that male suicide is on the rise (I am not sold on this), the cause would be that the genders are becoming less defined. By that I mean that it is becoming acceptable for males to have a soft side, and for females to have a hard side. So more males may feel free to accept that they are not always strong...

So would this soft side hinder males?

Hinder males? How? It should relieve pressure mostly, not having to live up to a macho image that is impossible for most to reach. Both men and women, especially young ones, feel a lot of pressure to achieve a certain gender image. In reality, we're all on a curve, very few hit that sweet spot. Plus the sweet spot keeps moving around with trends...

But it can relate to suicide I think because men feel more free to feel weak, to admit weaknesses to themselves.

Of course this is total speculation. If there is an increase in young males committing suicide, it may well be due to economic factors too. Or changes in peer pressure. Or any numbers of social trends.

Maybe you can find some statistics on the correlation between male suicide and economic factors.

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25-04-2016, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2016 02:18 PM by epronovost.)
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 11:54 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 11:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  I'd like to think that, if it were actually the case that male suicide is on the rise (I am not sold on this), the cause would be that the genders are becoming less defined. By that I mean that it is becoming acceptable for males to have a soft side, and for females to have a hard side. So more males may feel free to accept that they are not always strong...

So would this soft side hinder males?

Dividing behavior/emotions/skills into «soft» and «hard» side is a big misnomer in my opinion. Men always had and will always have a «soft» side and the opposite is true for woen. Right now, talking about your emotion, you are doing a «soft» thing, using «soft» skills and mindset. But to answer your question, no it doesn't hinder men (or women). It only hinder them if they have no outlet, socially acceptable and psychologically healthy ways to express, analyse and understand those emotion/behaviors/skills. A person with a stereotypical view of masculinity and feminity and strong adherence to those «codes» could see a natural part of himself/herself as an enemy and develop issues. Homophobic homosexuals are a good example of that process. On the other side, a person who so thoroughly integrated those «codes» might actually have a blunted emotional range and adaptation issues should he/she be placed in a situation that would call for skills/attitudes/emotions that belong to the other group. Does the «soft» side hinders male? Only if you believe that men should have specific, narrow and ritualised behavior, skills and interests.

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