why is male suicide going up?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-04-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 06:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 08:43 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  No, I'd be happy with reason. I didn't see anything that indicated that her statements was nothing more than an opinion, but if she is willing to say that it is her baseless opinion, with no reason, so be it. The skeptics mantra should be "Question Everything". If someone is going to spew something out like that, I'm gonna call them on it. If she has good reason to hold that opinion, I'm all ears. Maybe she'll convince me too. If it is true we should be looking into finding a solution for that as well, but I do not think she is even remotely close to the truth.

POV = point of view = opinion.

Regarding that opinion, if all you do is keep up with current events, (and that's all I do in this case, I am not interested enough to spend time on it) you will hear repeatedly that the school shooters are young white males living in social isolation. I don't recall hearing of any popular kids shooting up their schools. So, it's possible sexual frustration feeds into this. Probably if you ask random people many will say that. So I bet that's pretty much public opinion. All you can do about public opinion is disprove it. Not every thread here is based on science and not everything people think or say is researched, there are not enough hours in the day. What you do with such statements is up to you, in real life you won't be able to motivate people to research every opinion of theirs, either.

Some threads are just musings and invite other musings, in agreement or opposition. If you want something useful to come from it, introduce some facts.

Really, the only reason I chimed into this conversation is that the "citation" request is increasingly used by some to avoid doing research themselves. There is no burden of proof on an opinion. Only on things presented as fact. Nobody is required to research every thought they have. We would have either no posts, or no time to post, if we did.

Well, I certainly disagree that there is not a burden of proof regardless of whether it is expressed as an opinion or not. The "opinion" I responded to did not contain such language as pointing to an "opinion", but regardless, if it is my opinion that vaccinations are bad, or global warming is false, or evolution is bullshit, or the Christian God supports bombing Iraq, I can guarantee that you'd require evidence before you bought into such bullshit. I consider it my intellectual duty to question such questionable claims. If you do not, so be it. Social isolation does not equal sex, and evidence is required to substantiate the claim. Otherwise it is on par the the other examples I've listed. Social isolation is more likely to come from the examples I've listed previously...violent parents, sexual abuse, bullying, poverty etc. I can cite evidence so support my "opinion" if it is needed, fairly strong evidence at that. Now, you could say males who belong in the statistical categories I've listed are also less likely to have consensual sex than the "normal" boys, but I'd argue that says more about the preferences of girls than boys. I'm not faulting girls/women though, why wouldn't they want their offspring to be fathered by a wealthy, well-adjusted, popular male from a well-to-do family? They should. It's a sound decision.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-04-2016, 06:03 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2016 06:37 PM by Dom.)
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 05:39 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 06:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  POV = point of view = opinion.

Regarding that opinion, if all you do is keep up with current events, (and that's all I do in this case, I am not interested enough to spend time on it) you will hear repeatedly that the school shooters are young white males living in social isolation. I don't recall hearing of any popular kids shooting up their schools. So, it's possible sexual frustration feeds into this. Probably if you ask random people many will say that. So I bet that's pretty much public opinion. All you can do about public opinion is disprove it. Not every thread here is based on science and not everything people think or say is researched, there are not enough hours in the day. What you do with such statements is up to you, in real life you won't be able to motivate people to research every opinion of theirs, either.

Some threads are just musings and invite other musings, in agreement or opposition. If you want something useful to come from it, introduce some facts.

Really, the only reason I chimed into this conversation is that the "citation" request is increasingly used by some to avoid doing research themselves. There is no burden of proof on an opinion. Only on things presented as fact. Nobody is required to research every thought they have. We would have either no posts, or no time to post, if we did.

Well, I certainly disagree that there is not a burden of proof regardless of whether it is expressed as an opinion or not. The "opinion" I responded to did not contain such language as pointing to an "opinion", but regardless, if it is my opinion that vaccinations are bad, or global warming is false, or evolution is bullshit, or the Christian God supports bombing Iraq, I can guarantee that you'd require evidence before you bought into such bullshit. I consider it my intellectual duty to question such questionable claims. If you do not, so be it. Social isolation does not equal sex, and evidence is required to substantiate the claim. Otherwise it is on par the the other examples I've listed. Social isolation is more likely to come from the examples I've listed previously...violent parents, sexual abuse, bullying, poverty etc. I can cite evidence so support my "opinion" if it is needed, fairly strong evidence at that. Now, you could say males who belong in the statistical categories I've listed are also less likely to have consensual sex than the "normal" boys, but I'd argue that says more about the preferences of girls than boys. I'm not faulting girls/women though, why wouldn't they want their offspring to be fathered by a wealthy, well-adjusted, popular male from a well-to-do family? They should. It's a sound decision.

I was absolutely not commenting on the topic. I was commenting on posts I saw where one person repeatedly said it was only her POV, and the other person said she needed to post proof. Over and over again.

That is what I was commenting on. My comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the posters opinion, that was besides the point.

It's become a thing here, that if people don't like someone or something somebody said, instead of arguing against it, they just post: bring proof. Over and over and over again. That is not input, it doesn't further the conversation, it is not a debate.

You are presenting an argument, which is exactly what I wanted to see happening.

PS. I don't have an opinion on that topic, I am not a young male, I have no ideas what it feels like not to have sex as a young male or why masturbation doesn't fill that need, if indeed it does not.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-04-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 06:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 05:39 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Well, I certainly disagree that there is not a burden of proof regardless of whether it is expressed as an opinion or not. The "opinion" I responded to did not contain such language as pointing to an "opinion", but regardless, if it is my opinion that vaccinations are bad, or global warming is false, or evolution is bullshit, or the Christian God supports bombing Iraq, I can guarantee that you'd require evidence before you bought into such bullshit. I consider it my intellectual duty to question such questionable claims. If you do not, so be it. Social isolation does not equal sex, and evidence is required to substantiate the claim. Otherwise it is on par the the other examples I've listed. Social isolation is more likely to come from the examples I've listed previously...violent parents, sexual abuse, bullying, poverty etc. I can cite evidence so support my "opinion" if it is needed, fairly strong evidence at that. Now, you could say males who belong in the statistical categories I've listed are also less likely to have consensual sex than the "normal" boys, but I'd argue that says more about the preferences of girls than boys. I'm not faulting girls/women though, why wouldn't they want their offspring to be fathered by a wealthy, well-adjusted, popular male from a well-to-do family? They should. It's a sound decision.

I was absolutely not commenting on the topic. I was commenting on posts I saw where one person repeatedly said it was only her POV, and the other person said she needed to post proof. Over and over again.

That is what I was commenting on. My comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the posters opinion, that was besides the point.

It's become a thing here, that if people don't like someone or something somebody said, instead of arguing against it, they just post: bring proof. Over and over and over again. That is not input, it doesn't further the conversation, it is not a debate.

You are presenting an argument, which is exactly what I wanted to see happening.

PS. I don't have an opinion on that topic, I am not a young male, I have no ideas what it feels like not to have sex as a young male or why masturbation doesn't fill that need, if indeed it does not.

I didn't see the poster saying it was only her opinion over and over again, but my point still stands. If anyone posts something, opinion or not, I will challenge them on it if it doesn't reconcile with what I believe to be true. Especially when no evidence or reason is provided. That should be expected in the market-place of free ideas. Again, I welcome the poster to provide that information, or not, but my opinion, and the opinion of others should not be swayed without it said explanation. As it stands it is all jabber, no substance in my book.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dark Light's post
25-04-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 11:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 11:23 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Well the statistics on the ones we do know are suicide and reported as 35,000 a year is a start (WHO). From there the numbers would just rise if you add in all the ones that aren't reported. That would be a staggering figure. Maybe if we could have more honest numbers something more would be done to prevent it (in some cases) and the stigma might be lessened, in cases of the elderly or terminal illness.

But it still doesn't address why in some places the suicide rate for men is rising. It's actually the "why" I'm most curious about and it could simply be that men are treated incorrectly or maybe they're more likely to resist treatment.

One thing is for sure in the US, our mental health care is quite lackluster.

I'd like to think that, if it were actually the case that male suicide is on the rise (I am not sold on this),

Figures show that they in fact are rising in the UK:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationan...2015-02-19
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-04-2016, 10:09 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
Most current figures in Australia show the suicide rate decreasing:

• In 2014, there were 2,160 males (18.4 per 100,000) and 704 females (5.9 per 100,000) that died by suicide, for a total of 2,864 deaths,

• The highest age-specific adult suicide rate for males in 2014 was observed in the 85+ age group (37.6 per 100,000),

• The lowest age-specific adult suicide rate for males was in the 15-19 year age group (12.1 per 100,000),

• Suicide rates in Australia peaked in 1963 (17.5 per 100,000). The age-standardised suicide rate for persons in 2014 was 12.2 per 100,000.

The US figure is 12.1, and the UK figure is 6.2* (WHO, 2012, both age-standardised and per 100,000)

* Interestingly, the UK Office for National Statistics says the UK suicide rate was 11.9 deaths per 100,000 people in 2013, which sounds more accurate than the WHO figures. Who to believe. Any of our UK friends can clarify this?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SYZ's post
26-04-2016, 06:18 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
In Canada,, , suicide is especially hih in the groups of 45 to 49 with rates of almost 26 per 100,000 for men and 10 per 100,000. In both cases, its almost twice more than the median wich is at 17 per 100,000 and 5 per 100,000 respectively. Our bureau of statistics does report thow that suicide amongst the elderly and women might still be undereported.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-04-2016, 07:24 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(22-04-2016 03:40 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I miss our little talks so here is one. Why is male suicide raising?I mean it has always been an up and down thing but since 2010,the rates of suicide in men has gone up. I belive in the U.K it is the most common cause of death for young men. There are many reasons but I think the pattern I hear is that men aren't listened too and that the way we try to help men doesn't work(i.e trying to talk about feelings). But of course I want to see what ya'll think.

It probably relates to the predicament were 2.5 million UK men, state they have no close friends. So I would think a lack of meaningful relationships, is perhaps a considerable factor here.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/me...iends.html

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Tomasia's post
27-04-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(25-04-2016 12:31 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 11:54 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  So would this soft side hinder males?

Hinder males? How? It should relieve pressure mostly, not having to live up to a macho image that is impossible for most to reach. Both men and women, especially young ones, feel a lot of pressure to achieve a certain gender image. In reality, we're all on a curve, very few hit that sweet spot. Plus the sweet spot keeps moving around with trends...

But it can relate to suicide I think because men feel more free to feel weak, to admit weaknesses to themselves.

Of course this is total speculation. If there is an increase in young males committing suicide, it may well be due to economic factors too. Or changes in peer pressure. Or any numbers of social trends.

Maybe you can find some statistics on the correlation between male suicide and economic factors.

On one hand, you're correct, men are expected to hide their emotions and especially their suffering, depressed men are often told to "man up" instead of receiving compassion, empathy and help, which attitude, if anything, only worsens their situation. There are also a lot fewer social movements advocating standing up for men (and those that do often spread toxic or stigmatized ideas, furthering isolation) than for women or minorities, which might strengthen feelings of abandonment. Plus, there still is a prevailing social stigma against mental healthcare especially in Eastern Europe.
Also, economic events mostly influence male suicide, because society expects men to be the breadwinners and providers and a lot of their perceived worth hangs on their career and financial status - loss of a job is much more traumatizing and stigmatizing for a man than a woman. Before the economic crisis of 2008, financial reasons for suicide attempts were extremely rare, but since then they took ground. The greater number of completed suicides amongst men are due to that they tend to use more violent and "efficient" methods of self-termination like hanging, motor vehicle crashes or firearms (less so in the EU, more so where guns are freely available), while women usually attempt overdosing themselves (often with drugs that are very difficult to kill themself with, like benzodiazepines). From what I've learned at med school, the number of attempted suicides is mostly the same between the sexes, with a slight leaning towards females.

Tomasia: yes, social isolation is a strong risk factor for suicide: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/...-men-study
IMHO it's because of how widespread it is on social media (like Facebook and especially Instagram) to flaunt a fake sense of fulfilment that only exacerbates feelings of worthlessness amongst those already feeling depressed.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: