why is male suicide going up?
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23-04-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 08:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 08:11 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  I'm talking about the tragedy that occurs when someone chooses a permanent solution to temporary problems. There are far too many different circumstances and way too much nuance to be able to address your questions in any meaningful way.

Dom, I don't think I've ever disagreed with you on any stance regarding an individual's right to choose their own fate. I'm simply saying that it's not always the right choice, and for many different reasons.

Ok. It has just been something on my mind anyway. I don't get the concept of the "sanctity of life", I don't get why people are so upset when someone chooses to exit (other than their own grief).

I mean, dead is dead, when you are dead you are not missing anything. It is the survivors who are missing something. The departed decided that life (for them) did not have value, it wasn't worth the struggle.

Suicidal people are blamed for being selfish, criminalized, ostracized by their church buddies and it is automatically assumed that they must be irrational or depressed.

That doesn't exactly make life more attractive....

You would agree that a 10 year old offing himself because Chuck E Cheese called him a lil asshole was a bad decision, right?

I'm all for allowing someone who is suffering some debilitating disease the right to end their own misery. But many young people experience stress that isn't permanent, or even unique to them. I would think it'd be a disservice to tell such a young one, "go ahead, if you feel like it; it's your choice" before at least trying to explain to them that a break-up isn't worth dying over, or that the loss of a good paying job isn't worth you trying to get life insurance money for your still living children, etc...

Suicide is a choice, but not always the right one!

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23-04-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 01:06 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 01:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Zeke, I think your point in the Op might be closest to the reason. Many men feel they aren't listened to, or told to just bitch up.

Also treating of depression in men is often more difficult, because they're less likely to seek help, and talk therapy isn't always the best way to address the issue.

From personal experience I can say Zeke is spot on with that.

There was an academic study done years ago, when I was in college about getting kids to talk -- young children (4-6) of both genders responded best when asked questions while doing things like coloring. Something that doesn't require heavy concentration and can be relaxing.

Older children (preteens and older) didn't like the idea of coloring so we used other things. But boys specifically did respond better when their hands were occupied with a simple task (generally building something -- puzzles, painting or throwing pottery). Girls would stop whatever activity to talk, and forget about the activity.

Girls also responded even better to role play, which most of the boys couldn't be bothered with in the least.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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23-04-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
They'd rather *turn gay* than relinquish the remopte.
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23-04-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 01:35 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 01:06 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  From personal experience I can say Zeke is spot on with that.

There was an academic study done years ago, when I was in college about getting kids to talk -- young children (4-6) of both genders responded best when asked questions while doing things like coloring. Something that doesn't require heavy concentration and can be relaxing.

Older children (preteens and older) didn't like the idea of coloring so we used other things. But boys specifically did respond better when their hands were occupied with a simple task (generally building something -- puzzles, painting or throwing pottery). Girls would stop whatever activity to talk, and forget about the activity.

Girls also responded even better to role play, which most of the boys couldn't be bothered with in the least.

Very interesting.

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23-04-2016, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2016 02:17 PM by epronovost.)
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 12:42 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  5) Machismo. Many men are more afraid of being labelled weak than of their own problems.

Well this is the only one I can't agree with. I mean suicide was lower for men in the past, yet machismo was more prominent then. So I don't know how this is a factor.

The problem with your argument is it assumes we had good statistical report of suicide in the past, which isn't the case. Suicide used to be taboo and unreported to avoid social repercussion like excommunication or criminalisation for example. It even was illegal up until the mid-50 in most western country. Furthermore, Machismo isn't a cause of suicide, it’s an enabler. Machismo culture doesn't push men to suicide, but makes them more vulnerable because it robs them of the best psychological resource that help them deal with stress, depression, social isolation, etc. Only in a extreme case of bullying would machismo culture be directly involved in a suicide. On itself, machismo has no impact on suicide, but it enhance the negative effects created by other sources. Think of machismo like something that depress an immune system. It doesn't cause illness, but it makes them more dangerous.

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23-04-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 02:11 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 12:42 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Well this is the only one I can't agree with. I mean suicide was lower for men in the past, yet machismo was more prominent then. So I don't know how this is a factor.

The problem with your argument is it assumes we had good statistical report of suicide in the past, which isn't the case. Suicide used to be taboo and unreported to avoid social repercussion like excommunication or criminalisation for example. It even was illegal up until the mid-50 in most western country. Furthermore, Machismo isn't a cause of suicide, it’s an enabler. Machismo culture doesn't push men to suicide, but makes them more vulnerable because it robs them of the best psychological resource that help them deal with stress, depression, social isolation, etc. Only in a extreme case of bullying would machismo culture be directly involved in a suicide. On itself, machismo has no impact on suicide, but it enhance the negative effects created by other sources. Think of machismo like something that depress an immune system. It doesn't cause illness, but it makes them more dangerous.

Well so far the data is on a consensus that for men suicide was higher in times like the 60's. I wouldn't blame trying to be a man as a cause for suicide. Don't get me wrong, it could be for some, but that would be very little. As mentioned people tend not to talk to men in a away that works for men. It might not be machismo, but the fact people don't acknowledge it. I ain't going to claim it is the reason, but it could be a factor.

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23-04-2016, 02:42 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 02:32 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 02:11 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The problem with your argument is it assumes we had good statistical report of suicide in the past, which isn't the case. Suicide used to be taboo and unreported to avoid social repercussion like excommunication or criminalisation for example. It even was illegal up until the mid-50 in most western country. Furthermore, Machismo isn't a cause of suicide, it’s an enabler. Machismo culture doesn't push men to suicide, but makes them more vulnerable because it robs them of the best psychological resource that help them deal with stress, depression, social isolation, etc. Only in a extreme case of bullying would machismo culture be directly involved in a suicide. On itself, machismo has no impact on suicide, but it enhance the negative effects created by other sources. Think of machismo like something that depress an immune system. It doesn't cause illness, but it makes them more dangerous.

Well so far the data is on a consensus that for men suicide was higher in times like the 60's. I wouldn't blame trying to be a man as a cause for suicide. Don't get me wrong, it could be for some, but that would be very little. As mentioned people tend not to talk to men in a away that works for men. It might not be machismo, but the fact people don't acknowledge it. I ain't going to claim it is the reason, but it could be a factor.

I think we might have a bit of problem with our definition of machismo. Machismo is a very small and narrow spectrum of how men can behave. When I talk about machismo culture, I am mostly reffering to this one. Being macho or subscribing strongly to machismo culture doesn't make you «more a men» under the eyes of anybody else, but another person who subscribe to that sort of social convention.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictiona...h/machismo

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictiona...lish/macho

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23-04-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 02:42 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 02:32 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Well so far the data is on a consensus that for men suicide was higher in times like the 60's. I wouldn't blame trying to be a man as a cause for suicide. Don't get me wrong, it could be for some, but that would be very little. As mentioned people tend not to talk to men in a away that works for men. It might not be machismo, but the fact people don't acknowledge it. I ain't going to claim it is the reason, but it could be a factor.

I think we might have a bit of problem with our definition of machismo. Machismo is a very small and narrow spectrum of how men can behave. When I talk about machismo culture, I am mostly reffering to this one. Being macho or subscribing strongly to machismo culture doesn't make you «more a men» under the eyes of anybody else, but another person who subscribe to that sort of social convention.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictiona...h/machismo

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictiona...lish/macho

Well if that is the case I still stand by my point. I am not out right rejecting that some men be hurt by it, but seeing as how in the past suicide in times like the 60's had lower suicide rates, I don't think it can be one of the major causes.

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23-04-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 01:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 08:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  I mean, dead is dead, when you are dead you are not missing anything. It is the survivors who are missing something. The departed decided that life (for them) did not have value, it wasn't worth the struggle.

Suicidal people are blamed for being selfish, criminalized, ostracized by their church buddies and it is automatically assumed that they must be irrational or depressed.

I've known 4 people who committed suicide. Three were kids/young adults (all male), one was older and female (my god mother).

All but one were depressed at the time they committed suicide. The third was totally irrational, I would say picking a fight, getting suspended, coming home and hanging yourself was incredibly irrational.

I would also suggest that when my godmother took a gun to her head she was ONLY considering ending her pain (selfish) and didn't think or consider her junior high age daughter finding her body.

There was NOTHING rational about what she did.

Well, I have known the same number, 4. All were adult, 3 elderly and one terminal in his early 50s. (and I keep pointing out that for the young suicide is not usually a rational solution, but it is often that for the old). Nobody left a mess. Unfortunately someone does have to find the body, beings that it is illegal and there is no place to go to prevent that. Out of the 4, two did it in Hotels, one did it inside the hospital (by refusing treatment) and the 4th was found by the cleaning lady.

Unfortunately most of the real data are going to be just anecdotal, since all 4 were not recorded as suicides, and most adult and elderly suicides are not recorded that way.

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23-04-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: why is male suicide going up?
(23-04-2016 09:32 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(23-04-2016 06:43 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I don't think so. The majority of suicides, murder/suicides and mass shootings/suicides are young white men. How is that not relevant? Many of them, as we have heard after the fact, had entitlement issues, mommy issues, women issues that were also related to their entitlement issues, so how is that not relevant? That all of those things are also mental health issues is not a coincidence it's relative to the problem as a whole. I don't believe there a single factor in all this, it's complex and any and all factors and sub factors are reasonable to discuss. I never claimed they were the only factor.

Yes, some black guys do this as well but the overwhelming majority is young white guys. I think the category of "suicides" (anyone who kills themselves regardless of what happens just prior to the actual suicide) is pretty big, maybe it should've been specified it to a single individual killing himself, for ease of discussion. There are lots of sub categories for suicide. Again, they're all relevant, imo.

You mentioned Elliot Rodger. I think this article sums it up well.

http://time.com/114354/elliot-rodger-ucsb-misogyny/

Thanks for the article. I just got a chance to read it. Yes I agree, first and foremost is mental illness but as I said in a previous post, many complex reasons and though mental illness is the root cause, the other factors are not irrelevant. At least not to me. I do wish he had gone into more about it, I feel it was not detailed enough about the metal illness itself. If you want people in general to accept an alternative theory then you should give them more than a note of a diagnosis "mental illness".

The whole point of wanting to know is, wanting to know. It's about risk assessment, right or wrong and people will fill-in or accept what is comfortable when the real information is lacking or so sparse it's unsatisfactory. It's not right but it's often true.

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