why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
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14-02-2015, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 03:34 PM by DLJ.)
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
WTAF, boys.

Thread closed while I tidy up.

Cos I've got nothing better to do with my life!

Weeping

EDIT: Thread re-opened. Does that look right GWoG?



Someone had better give me more +rep for that. That was fucking overtime!

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14-02-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
(14-02-2015 03:24 PM)DLJ Wrote:  WTAF, boys.

Thread closed while I tidy up.

Cos I've got nothing better to do with my life!

Weeping

EDIT: Thread re-opened. Does that look right GWoG?



Someone had better give me more +rep for that. That was fucking overtime!

yes sir, close enough for government work.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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14-02-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
COTW and readers.

My apologies for TLDR. I realize it becomes an ordeal to read so much, and my attempt to reply within and around his reply is just a huge mess. In the future I will make shorter assertions. It is just hard to answer "prove/disprove jesus" in a paragraph, and because of life schedule I didnt want to drag this debate out for months.

So COTW, when you reply, make it a fresh reply, unlike my mess, and lets try to pick an area to flesh out, this is such a massive subject that it gets out of control quickly. I have, had, and will write for days on this subject Unsure

Best of luck.

GWG

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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14-02-2015, 10:17 PM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
(14-02-2015 03:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  COTW and readers.

My apologies for TLDR. I realize it becomes an ordeal to read so much, and my attempt to reply within and around his reply is just a huge mess. In the future I will make shorter assertions. It is just hard to answer "prove/disprove jesus" in a paragraph, and because of life schedule I didnt want to drag this debate out for months.

So COTW, when you reply, make it a fresh reply, unlike my mess, and lets try to pick an area to flesh out, this is such a massive subject that it gets out of control quickly. I have, had, and will write for days on this subject Unsure

Best of luck.

GWG

I have a resolution...there is this chat website called mibbit https://client01.chat.mibbit.com/

My proposal is that we pick up the conversation on there, and once it is over, we can give some of your peers on here a transcript of the debate (the site has this feature).

It will be in real time (instant messaging), and we can discuss everything on a point by point basis. What do you think?
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14-02-2015, 10:25 PM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
(14-02-2015 10:17 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 03:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  COTW and readers.

My apologies for TLDR. I realize it becomes an ordeal to read so much, and my attempt to reply within and around his reply is just a huge mess. In the future I will make shorter assertions. It is just hard to answer "prove/disprove jesus" in a paragraph, and because of life schedule I didnt want to drag this debate out for months.

So COTW, when you reply, make it a fresh reply, unlike my mess, and lets try to pick an area to flesh out, this is such a massive subject that it gets out of control quickly. I have, had, and will write for days on this subject Unsure

Best of luck.

GWG

I have a resolution...there is this chat website called mibbit https://client01.chat.mibbit.com/

My proposal is that we pick up the conversation on there, and once it is over, we can give some of your peers on here a transcript of the debate (the site has this feature).

It will be in real time (instant messaging), and we can discuss everything on a point by point basis. What do you think?

I appreciate the offer, but as a full time student, full time active duty military officer, wife and 4 kids, it is always about time management for me. This medium fits my needs as I can swing by when I have a moment, where as if I am in a live event, I have too many variables going on. I have three papers to write yet before tomorrow and a case study *gag*. I would prefer to stay here, no offense. This way I can reply when I have a moment. I am sure you are busy as well. please read my replies from this morning as I spent 5 hours doing so. Smile I don't like to make assertions I cannot cite and validate, it gives credibility to my opinion....and that takes time. Once you have gone over my replies, pick an area if you want, and lets keep it short and readable from here. I love this subject and like you, am very passionate about it, so it is easy for me to type for hours...literally. I think you will find my replies interesting, I posted a lot of information. Only an open mind can learn. Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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15-02-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
Where is the new posts? I don't see it. Got a link?
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15-02-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
(15-02-2015 08:33 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Where is the new posts? I don't see it. Got a link?

go to post 8, click where it says snip. Sorry, horrible format, and huge paper we have dragging along now. But read it anyway, reply to a couple things you take issue with in a new reply post, and we can go from there. Short and sweet makes it easier for people to read, and us to answer. I should have spoon fed my OP, my mistake. I don't mean that sarcastically, I mean in small bites. This as you know is a huge subject, and I have massive files and knowledge of it. hard to not drop huge loads of info when answering such questions as "disprove jesus". Not if it is to be done credibly. Cited for your learning pleasure. We can lob opinions back and forth all day laced with sarcasm, but it is academic level assertions backed by credible sources that makes a real debate.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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15-02-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
(15-02-2015 09:48 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  go to post 8, click where it says snip. Sorry, horrible format, and huge paper we have dragging along now. But read it anyway, reply to a couple things you take issue with in a new reply post, and we can go from there. Short and sweet makes it easier for people to read, and us to answer. I should have spoon fed my OP, my mistake. I don't mean that sarcastically, I mean in small bites. This as you know is a huge subject, and I have massive files and knowledge of it. hard to not drop huge loads of info when answering such questions as "disprove jesus". Not if it is to be done credibly. Cited for your learning pleasure. We can lob opinions back and forth all day laced with sarcasm, but it is academic level assertions backed by credible sources that makes a real debate.

Ahhh, I see why you were apologizing so much, and with good reason, because you basically screwed up the entire exchange. How the hell can I quote what you say when you are making comments and assertions all through my response??

We would have been better off sticking with the normal format.
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15-02-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
(15-02-2015 10:37 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 09:48 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  go to post 8, click where it says snip. Sorry, horrible format, and huge paper we have dragging along now. But read it anyway, reply to a couple things you take issue with in a new reply post, and we can go from there. Short and sweet makes it easier for people to read, and us to answer. I should have spoon fed my OP, my mistake. I don't mean that sarcastically, I mean in small bites. This as you know is a huge subject, and I have massive files and knowledge of it. hard to not drop huge loads of info when answering such questions as "disprove jesus". Not if it is to be done credibly. Cited for your learning pleasure. We can lob opinions back and forth all day laced with sarcasm, but it is academic level assertions backed by credible sources that makes a real debate.

Ahhh, I see why you were apologizing so much, and with good reason, because you basically screwed up the entire exchange. How the hell can I quote what you say when you are making comments and assertions all through my response??

We would have been better off sticking with the normal format.

I was having so much fun reading your.....assertions that I couldn't wait to reply as I was reading them. Although if you bother, and you probably won't, read them, as well as the lengthy posits I wrote, you just may learn a few things, knowledge is power afterall. These aren't my opinions, these are historically, substantiated facts. The learning of these facts is what dragged me off the road of delusion as a christian, and into reason and logic as the preferred method of epistemology. I hope someday that clarity comes to you as well.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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15-02-2015, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 12:38 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: why jesus didn't exist for... call of the wild
After you read post 8 and my responses (I would appreciate that) you can go forward with this tiny chunk I just cut out of that post. We can continue from there for simplicity sake. We can get into the gospels at greater depth, and Daniel, and Paul and Jesus for months if you wish. I have endless data.


You claim the dates I posited for the writing of the gosples is wrong, here is my counter:

"Mark was written around 70 CE; Matthew and Luke, sometime between 80 and 90 CE; and John sometime between 95 and 100 CE. Matthew Mark and Luke make up the synoptic Gospels, although differing greatly in important details. John is unique: it has a different chronology and geography, things show up in John not found in the Synoptics and vice versa, and it has an entirely different feel to it. The Jesus of the Synoptics speaks in parables, but in the Gospel of John, symbolism pervades" (Stewart, 2008, p.36).

Citation:

Stewart, Cynthia. The Catholic Church: A brief popular history. Winona, MN. Anselm Academic. 2008. Print.


“According to the most widely accepted critical scholarly theory, the Gospel of Mark was the first of the Gospels, written approximately 65 – 70 CE. Since Jesus died around the year 30, we must assume a gap of approximately 35 to 40 years during which historical traditions about his life are passed down orally. Jesus spoke Aramaic; the Gospels are written in Greek. Translational errors are prevalent. Because the Gospel writers were explicitly writing to encourage faith, some scholars argue that they were not interested in historical accuracy. John writes, “but these [signs of Jesus] are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God” (20:31); Luke writes his account to Theophilus “that you may realize the certainty of the teachings [basic theological beliefs about Jesus] you have received” (1:4). Thus the Gospel writers cannot be accepted as objective witnesses to historical events (Albl, 2009, pp.281-282).

“Writings of the Gospels: Mark (65 – 75 CE), Matthew (80 – 90), Luke (80 – 90), and John (80 – 110) (Albl, 2009, p.283).

Citation:

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.


Papias (60 – 130 CE), a Bishop of Hierapolis in Asia Minor, referred to the Gospel writer Mark as “an interpreter” of the stories passed down from Peter (Albl, 2009, p.284). Keyword there is “interpreter” and “stories” and “passed down”. Note the years he was alive also. So his beliefs, of the accuracy of the Gospels, or who wrote them or when they were written is irrelevant. Papias wrote one book, Explanations of the stories of the Lord, towards the end of his life. We do not have that book. We only have various brief quotations from and descriptions of it (mainly in Irenaeus and Eusebius), in which Papias himself says he lived when none of the original apostles still did, but contemporary with some men who claim to have known them… A claim that was not necessarily true; from the quotations we have, we can tell Papias was a very gullible fellow, so much so that even Eusebius called him “a man of very little intelligence” (Eusebius, history of the church). Papias also said he rejected what books said and instead relied only on hearsay, because he considered that to be more reliable (Eusebius, history of the church). He was thus clearly the least reliable sort of source we could possibly want. Papias’s various musings and writings were of complete nonsense. Please feel free to research, to reference him as an argument from authority is laughable at best.


Over to you....

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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