why would a deity need to take attendance ?
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26-04-2016, 09:45 AM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
I forgot to say thanks for your time and desire to help me to search things that are true. I also forgot to say "Cheers".

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26-04-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(26-04-2016 09:44 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:So far I've pointed out to you Isaiah 8:20 and Isaiah 43:10, I'll also give you Isaiah 44:6.
Yes, I believe those words are true and your point is?

My point is, those verses make it clear there is only one god. My point is Joseph Smith changed that part of god's nature and made it "many" gods. My point is, the god of the Jews is not as weak as Joseph Smith makes him out to be. My point is, Joseph Smith didn't understand the nature of god and so he clearly (and mistakenly) turned god into an ex-man. A MAN! Joseph Smith's god was nothing more than a man, once upon a time.

This is CLEARLY NOT the same book that the Jews read from. Joseph Smith got his information from his imagination and nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that, he can tell all the stories he wants, but he does NOT have the right to change the meaning of someone else's book and then claim it as his own.

(25-04-2016 08:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:The languages also follow this path. There is no archaeological evidence anywhere that indicates the tribes J.S. claims to have lived, fought battles, and died here, even existed.
OK, where are we planning to look for them? do you have any particular place in mind? what specifically are we going to look for FIRST? any ideas?

Ahhhh, Geography... another area of study that we would have to throw out if we want to accept the book of Mormon to be true.

Why don't we start with the hill of Cumorah? Maybe we can find the cave that J.S. wrote about? Maybe we can find a few dead bodies and their weapons from one of the MAJOR wars that J.S. writes about.

(25-04-2016 08:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:If your god is an absolute liar with no power or ability other than that of a regular man, then by all means... Joseph Smith is/was a prophet to that god.
No, no, I refuse to believe this. God of Abraham(non-Jew), Isaak(non-Jew) and Jacob(non-Jew) is very, very powerful.

It doesn't matter if someone is a Jew or not. I've never said that a prophet must be a Jew. I said the Jews told the story and the Jews wrote it down and the Jews preserved it and the Jews have kept it alive within their traditions. The Christians, the Mormons, the Muslims... All have bastardized the original story of the Jews.

(25-04-2016 08:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:Show me the dead on Cumorah. Show me the weapons. Didn't a couple of MILLION people die on that hill in at least two different wars? Even if it's ONLY hundreds of thousands... Let's see some evidence. Too many dead bodies missing from such a small place.
I would love to but there is one problem. I have no idea where this hill is located. Do you know what I don't know?

New York according to Joseph Smith's writings.

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26-04-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(26-04-2016 09:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  I forgot to say thanks for your time and desire to help me to search things that are true. I also forgot to say "Cheers".

Thank you, I'm enjoying the conversation too. I'm learning and that's always good.

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27-04-2016, 12:52 AM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2016 12:58 AM by Alla.)
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
Skittles Wrote:My point is, those verses make it clear there is only one god. My point is Joseph Smith changed that part of god's nature and made it "many" gods.
I understand your point now. Let me say something and then ask you few questions.

Let's assume that there is God Yahweh. He made a covenant with a group of people. One of the conditions of the covenant is that they will not worship other gods/idols. God also said that there is ONLY ONE GOD whom they have to worship/obey. THERE IS NO OTHER GOD whom they can worship.
Let's assume these people broke a covenant and started to worship other gods/idols.
So what if when God told them "there is no other God beside Him" He was NOT telling them that there are no other gods formed somewhere in the infinite space but He was making a point: He was telling them that there was no other God formed beside Him whom they HAVE TO WORSHIP AND OBEY?
Please, tell me why this understanding is not correct?
Skittles Wrote:My point is, the god of the Jews is not as weak as Joseph Smith makes him out to be.
Please, explain. I don't understand why you say this.
Skittles Wrote:My point is Joseph Smith's god was nothing more than a man, once upon a time.
Hmm, you know something I don't know. I am not familiar with this doctrine.
could you please show me a quote where I can see that Joseph Smith was teaching this doctrine that God is NOTHING MORE THAN A MAN, once upon a time.[/quote]
Skittles Wrote:This is CLEARLY NOT the same book that the Jews read from.
And your point is?
Skittles Wrote:Joseph Smith got his information from his imagination and nothing more.
Hmmm, You know something I don't know.
Skittles Wrote:There's nothing wrong with that, he can tell all the stories he wants, but he does NOT have the right to change the meaning of someone else's book and then claim it as his own.

Unless God let him to do this.
Skittles Wrote:
Alla Wrote:OK, where are we planning to look for them? do you have any particular place in mind? what specifically are we going to look for FIRST? any ideas?
Ahhhh, Geography... another area of study that we would have to throw out if we want to accept the book of Mormon to be true.
Why don't we start with the hill of Cumorah? Maybe we can find the cave that J.S. wrote about? Maybe we can find a few dead bodies and their weapons from one of the MAJOR wars that J
Let's start with this particular hill Cumorah. Well, where is it? Where is this Cumorah you are talking about? I am sure that I am not the only Mormon who is dying to know this.
Skittles Wrote:It doesn't matter if someone is a Jew or not. I've never said that a prophet must be a Jew. I said the Jews told the story and the Jews wrote it down and the Jews preserved it and the Jews have kept it alive within their traditions. The Christians, the Mormons, the Muslims... All have bastardized the original story of the Jews.
God didn't speak to Jews for how long? Very, very long time. Hmmm, not a very good sign. When God does NOT want to speak to you it means God is not pleased with you. It means you are in big trouble.
Hmmm, why wouldn't God be pleased with them? Hmm, may be they broke covenants and changed His ordinances? may be they did not preserve the books very well? If this is the case God then sends a Prophet. Let's say this prophet is descendant of Joseph. That Joseph who was favorite son of Jacob/Israel and with whom God was pleased.
Then God says to this Prophet: "Son, we have got some great and marvelous work to do".
You were saying something about American Indians. What about it?

Cheers.

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27-04-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  I understand your point now. Let me say something and then ask you few questions.

Let's assume that there is God Yahweh. He made a covenant with a group of people. One of the conditions of the covenant is that they will not worship other gods/idols. God also said that there is ONLY ONE GOD whom they have to worship/obey. THERE IS NO OTHER GOD whom they can worship.
Let's assume these people broke a covenant and started to worship other gods/idols.
So what if when God told them "there is no other God beside Him" He was NOT telling them that there are no other gods formed somewhere in the infinite space but He was making a point: He was telling them that there was no other God formed beside Him whom they HAVE TO WORSHIP AND OBEY?
Please, tell me why this understanding is not correct?

You can "Assume" any god you wish. That's not the point. The story you just "assumed" has no roots in the Jewish religion.

Why are you concerned with the Jewish books if you don't believe the story they tell? You keep telling me they're wrong but you haven't "SHOWN" me where they're wrong and "WHY" they're wrong. When you pick a "translated" verse and the Jews are telling you it was translated wrong, by what authority are you receiving this brand new translation? What are the qualifications of the authority that is telling you the brand new translation?

I think it's important, for you, to answer these questions in detail. I would really like for you to think deeply about your answers. Please. Thumbsup

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  could you please show me a quote where I can see that Joseph Smith was teaching this doctrine that God is NOTHING MORE THAN A MAN, once upon a time.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princi...n?lang=eng
Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).
Emphasis mine.

It gets worse! Shortly before Joseph Smith died he started to change the Jewish god's character even more. Let's look at the King Follett sermon...

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-k...n?lang=eng
it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
Emphasis mine

Now that I've shown you what you asked for, what are you going to do with the information? Did you really not know Joseph Smith taught this?

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  Hmmm, You know something I don't know.

Probably, but no worries, I'm sure you know many things that I don't know. Wink


(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  Let's start with this particular hill Cumorah. Well, where is it? Where is this Cumorah you are talking about? I am sure that I am not the only Mormon who is dying to know this.

New York, according to Joseph Smith's writings.
I'm pretty sure most Mormons know about this place.
http://www.hillcumorah.org/visitctr.php

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  God didn't speak to Jews for how long? Very, very long time. Hmmm, not a very good sign. When God does NOT want to speak to you it means God is not pleased with you.

Who says? How do you know the Jewish god is displeased? Have you asked the Jewish people what their god story says? Maybe they have a perfectly reasonable explanation why the prophets stopped.

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  It means you are in big trouble.

Again, who says?

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  Hmmm, why wouldn't God be pleased with them? Hmm, may be they broke covenants and changed His ordinances? may be they did not preserve the books very well?

How do you come to this conclusion? Have you checked your hypothesis out with the Jewish people? Maybe we should look at what they're saying...

https://www.jewishideas.org/articles/end...developmen
Ezekiel chapters 8–10 describe a vision wherein God shows the prophet the rampant idolatry in Jerusalem. God’s Presence abandons the Temple and goes into exile. Radak (on Ezek. 9:3) explains that the absence of God’s Presence ultimately contributed to the disappearance of prophecy.
Emphasis mine

It would appear the Jewish people have a lot to say on this topic. The little bit I copied and pasted above is just a sampling of why their god isn't doing the prophet thing anymore. It would appear there might be MANY REASONS prophets are no longer needed.

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  If this is the case God then sends a Prophet. Let's say this prophet is descendant of Joseph. That Joseph who was favorite son of Jacob/Israel and with whom God was pleased.
Then God says to this Prophet: "Son, we have got some great and marvelous work to do".

I'd say, "You've got a whole lot of provin' to do." Yes

(27-04-2016 12:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  You were saying something about American Indians. What about it?

Their DNA shows them to be descendants of the Asian people. Their language also follows the Asian route.

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28-04-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
Skittle, thank you for your post. I was busy but I will respond asap.
I also want to read links you provided.
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28-04-2016, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2016 05:01 PM by Alla.)
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
Skittles Wrote:You can "Assume" any god you wish. That's not the point. The story you just "assumed" has no roots in the Jewish religion.
I understand this.
Skittles Wrote:Why are you concerned with the Jewish books if you don't believe the story they tell?
I never said that I don't believe the story books tell.
Skittles Wrote:You keep telling me they're wrong but you haven't "SHOWN" me where they're wrong and "WHY" they're wrong. When you pick a "translated" verse and the Jews are telling you it was translated wrong, by what authority are you receiving this brand new translation? What are the qualifications of the authority that is telling you the brand new translation?
I think it's important, for you, to answer these questions in detail. I would really like for you to think deeply about your answers. Please
I agree that your questions and answers to them are very important.
Skittles Wrote:Have you checked your hypothesis out with the Jewish people? Maybe we should look at what they're saying...

Yes, I looked. This is what I understood - the main reason why God doesn't send any more prophets:
The last prophets were diminished or, alternatively, were mere transmitters of Jeremiah’s message. Malbim (on Zech. 1:5–6) presents a more benign form of this approach:
I will not send new prophets, since THERE IS NO LONGER ANY NEED FOR PROPHETS as you have seen all the prophecies of doom fulfilled against you…there is no longer any need for prophecy since you already understand God’s hand in history.
According to Malbim, there no longer was any need for prophecy since the message had already been given through earlier prophets
Please, let me know if you agree with me. Then I will continue to respond to this.
Skittles Wrote:You keep telling me they're wrong but you haven't "SHOWN" me where they're wrong and "WHY" they're wrong.
I will not give an answer to this because I can NOT prove to you whose interpretation is right or wrong. People argue with each other about who is right and who is wrong and they never come to an agreement. Also it is not my goal to convince you that they are wrong. You are an atheist. Hello! Why would you even care about?
The purpose of our discussion is that you try to show me this: if we assume that God Yahweh really exists there is no way Joseph Smith could be His true Prophet.
Skittles Wrote:When you pick a "translated" verse and the Jews are telling you it was translated wrong, by what authority are you receiving this brand new translation?
By God's authority. But not me, of course. I am not a Prophet of God Yahweh. Prophets of God in these last days have this authority.
Skittles Wrote:What are the qualifications of the authority that is telling you the brand new translation?
1) to love God
2)to have a desire to serve Him and to obey Him
3)to be called by God
4)to be ordained and sanctified by God
5)to have priesthood and keys of heaven

P.S. This is what I strongly believe: only those who WRITE scriptures or the Word of God have an AUTHORITY to translate scriptures or the Word of God, to correct errors in scriptures or the Word of God, to INTERPRET scriptures or the Word of God. Nobody else has this authority. It doesn't mean that those who are not prophets and don't have authority can not do it on their own. God gives all people agency to make different choices. God even let men to corrupt His Word(scriptures), to translate them any way they want or have ability BUT it doesn't mean that God will sanctify their work. It doesn't mean they have KEYS to do this.

When we are done with this we can discus Cumorah and American Indians and their DNA. Do you agree?

Cheers

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29-04-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, I looked. This is what I understood - the main reason why God doesn't send any more prophets:
The last prophets were diminished or, alternatively, were mere transmitters of Jeremiah’s message. Malbim (on Zech. 1:5–6) presents a more benign form of this approach:
I will not send new prophets, since THERE IS NO LONGER ANY NEED FOR PROPHETS as you have seen all the prophecies of doom fulfilled against you…there is no longer any need for prophecy since you already understand God’s hand in history.
According to Malbim, there no longer was any need for prophecy since the message had already been given through earlier prophets
Please, let me know if you agree with me. Then I will continue to respond to this.

Malbim gave his ideas, the same as other Rabbi's. I don't think the Jews are claiming to know exactly why god stopped sending prophets, but they don't seem surprised because they see where god talked about the day when prophets wouldn't be needed.

The idea of god stopping the prophets seems to be a perfectly normal concept according to the Jewish people. You really should listen to a Rabbi sometime.
1. Pick a topic you enjoy.
2. Maybe do a YouTube search for a Rabbi talking about the topic you enjoy.
3. Really listen to what he says and research it.

You will be amazed at how different the Jewish god is from the Christian god if you just take the time to listen to the Jews.

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:You keep telling me they're wrong but you haven't "SHOWN" me where they're wrong and "WHY" they're wrong.
I will not give an answer to this because I can NOT prove to you whose interpretation is right or wrong. People argue with each other about who is right and who is wrong and they never come to an agreement. Also it is not my goal to convince you that they are wrong.

Okay, this is good. You are seeing the disagreement.

You CAN know. You CAN prove it. Not only to yourself, but to others too.

I don't know you, but I believe you when you say English is not your native language. YOU are better off then most people in this position. YOU have accomplished something that many people cannot do! YOU speak at least two languages very well. You should be very pleased with yourself for having that ability and proud of your accomplishment. I understand the hard work involved and I think you deserve credit for that.

I don't know your native language, but if my husband started telling me what a picture from a book in your native language meant, and he was wrong, don't you think you'd tell me? My point to this "what if" scenario is that anyone in my position would have to take the word of the person who actually speaks the language and check it with other people who also speak the language. I would be a fool to listen to my husband since he knows nothing about your language and therefore couldn't possibly know as much as you and others that speak the actual language know.

In other words, I would never take the word of someone who clearly didn't know what he was talking about, even if that person was my husband. If every Hispanic person I know tells me "agua" means "water" and then some clown comes up to me and tells me it means "flood" then I have to say, "liar" to the person telling me it means "flood."

All I'm saying is, don't sell yourself short. You've already proven you CAN know, now you just have to "see" it for real.

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  You are an atheist. Hello! Why would you even care about? The purpose of our discussion is that you try to show me this: if we assume that God Yahweh really exists there is no way Joseph Smith could be His true Prophet.

I can be an atheist and still appreciate the Jewish god story. It really is an interesting story and sometimes filled with excitement, lol. I think you should listen to it, it will open you eyes. You will come to find out just how off track the Christian religion really is from the original story.

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:When you pick a "translated" verse and the Jews are telling you it was translated wrong, by what authority are you receiving this brand new translation?
By God's authority. But not me, of course. I am not a Prophet of God Yahweh. Prophets of God in these last days have this authority.

Really? Does god tell you what this ---> אֱלֹהִ֑ים <--- or this ---> שָׂטָן <--- says? I really doubt it.

This is why it's important to actually talk to someone who genuinely understands the language. Please, be honest enough to admit that you are taking the word of some dead guys writings, named Joseph Smith. You have the ability to look up Joseph Smith's qualifications and you will see for yourself that you'd NEVER allow him to teach you another language if he were alive today!!!

You must talk to a real person who actually SPEAKS the language though, in order to learn. How did you learn English? Part of your learning included talking to others and practicing it's use in many different settings (did I mention how well I think you speak??!!!). You've learned how the same word can have several meanings, depending on how it's used. Don't you see... The Jews have kept this story alive and can tell you the WHOLE story in the original language, spoken the way it was meant to be spoken.

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:What are the qualifications of the authority that is telling you the brand new translation?
1) to love God
2)to have a desire to serve Him and to obey Him
3)to be called by God
4)to be ordained and sanctified by God
5)to have priesthood and keys of heaven

Oops, probably a language barrier here... Undecided
"WHO" is telling you this? What authority do they have? Is this something the Mormons have told you? How would they know?

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S. This is what I strongly believe: only those who WRITE scriptures or the Word of God have an AUTHORITY to translate scriptures or the Word of God, to correct errors in scriptures or the Word of God, to INTERPRET scriptures or the Word of God. Nobody else has this authority.

Okay, I'll accept that statement for the sake of discussion. Now think about this very carefully...

How do you know Joseph Smith is correct and L. Ron Hubbard is NOT correct? How did you make that determination? What has god said so that we can SAFELY know and be 100% sure? The Jews can tell you because they actually UNDERSTAND what they're talking about. It's their story! Why would you even entertain the idea of relying on someone as ignorant as Joseph Smith. (This is not a slam to you or Joseph Smith, it's just a fact that J.S. was not known for any scholarly writings.) If he were alive today, what could he possibly say to convince you that he knew what he was talking about?

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  It doesn't mean that those who are not prophets and don't have authority can not do it on their own. God gives all people agency to make different choices. God even let men to corrupt His Word(scriptures), to translate them any way they want or have ability BUT it doesn't mean that God will sanctify their work. It doesn't mean they have KEYS to do this.

Again, I'll let this go for the sake of discussion. How do you know ALL the words of god? Who are you allowing to translate the words for you? It's clearly not god or you would just read the Hebrew and be done with it. But you've said you don't read or understand Hebrew. So who's interpreting it for you? Everything you write in your responses leads me to believe you are reading Joseph Smith's interpretation of Hebrew.

This seems to me to be where you are making an error in your reasoning. This isn't a bad thing... It's just something you need to be aware of if you want to find the truth.

(28-04-2016 04:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  When we are done with this we can discus Cumorah and American Indians and their DNA. Do you agree?

Absolutely! Thumbsup

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29-04-2016, 05:42 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
Skittles Wrote:Malbim gave his ideas, the same as other Rabbi's. I don't think the Jews are claiming to know exactly why god stopped sending prophets, but they don't seem surprised because they see where god talked about the day when prophets wouldn't be needed.
I know that they don't know exactly why God Yahweh stopped sending TO THEM prophets. When they say that they KNOW something because God REVEALED it to them then I will be all ears. When they claim that God REVEALED: "You don't need any more My prophets" I will be all ears.
Skittles Wrote:The idea of god stopping the prophets seems to be a perfectly normal concept according to the Jewish people. You really should listen to a Rabbi sometime.
I will, as soon as he claims that the things he is teaching were REVEALED to him by God Yahweh.
Skittles Wrote:Really? Does god tell you what this ---> אֱלֹהִ֑ים <--- or this ---> שָׂטָן <--- says? I really doubt it.
No. And your point is?
Skittles Wrote:How do you know Joseph Smith is correct and L. Ron Hubbard is NOT correct?
Let's say I have no idea who is correct and who is not correct. But I KNOW whom I want to hear for sure. I want to hear a man who claims that he saw God and God revealed to him many things. I am not interested in a man who says: "I don't know exactly why God does or says this or that but I assume/think/ guess ...blah, blah, blah. "
Skittles Wrote:What has god said so that we can SAFELY know and be 100% sure?
Many things. God Yahweh( Christ) is teaching many principles that I know are true. I live by those principles.
But there are many things that I don't know are true. I just have faith that they are true. There is a reason why God does not gives us proof that He is real. There is a reason why we have to live by faith. It is very, very important to have FAITH in Christ.
Skittles Wrote:The Jews can tell you because they actually UNDERSTAND what they're talking about
I know that they claim this. But until they claim that they receive revelations from God Yahweh and that is WHY they understand correctly I am not interested. I will not even waste my time.
There is a reason why I let LDS missionaries to teach me.
They told me three very important things besides many other important things:
1)God sends His prophets today like He did in ancient times
2)Joseph Smith was visited by God father and HIs Son
3)they said: "But, don't believe us. Ask God if what we say is true and when He answers BELIEVE Him".
Skittles Wrote:Again, I'll let this go for the sake of discussion. How do you know ALL the words of god? Who are you allowing to translate the words for you? It's clearly not god or you would just read the Hebrew and be done with it. But you've said you don't read or understand Hebrew. So who's interpreting it for you? Everything you write in your responses leads me to believe you are reading Joseph Smith's interpretation of Hebrew
You are right. I trust Joseph Smith's understanding of the Bible. When I have to choose between learned man and a prophet of God when they talk about God and His Words I choose a prophet of God.
I have the Book of Mormon, D&C and other modern scriptures. They were written for our times. I am more interested in what God is telling my generation than what He was telling ancient generations. It is more relevant. God speaks in many languages so many nations can understand. These scriptures are translated in many languages.
Skittles, don't you know that there are more than one tribe(NATION) in the house of Jacob(Israel)? God spoke to ancient prophets in the language they spoke and understood . IN THESE LAST DAYS God speaks in the language modern prophets speak and understand. It only makes sense. Why would God speak to Joseph or to the prophet in 2016 in the language they don't know?

I think I am ready to discus Cumorah and American Indians. Are you?

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29-04-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(29-04-2016 05:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  IN THESE LAST DAYS God speaks in the language modern prophets speak and understand. It only makes sense. Why would God speak to Joseph or to the prophet in 2016 in the language they don't know?

GWYNNIES!

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