why would a deity need to take attendance ?
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08-05-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 11:26 AM)Alla Wrote:  I thank all of you for the help. I need to digest all the information. If it was not you I wouldn't take my Evolution 101 course from evolution.berkeley.edu
I wouldn't re-learned about cells and DNA. I am learning a lot. I think all of you deserve big, big thank you for that.
But because I am not as bright as all of you and I am not pro in genetics and stuff I may have hard time to understand everything you say.

So, saying all this I still don't feel like I have an answer to my specific question (may be because I was born too stupid).
So, please, forgive me.
My question: if there are two men who came from Middle East to Americas and if they took wives from the population who already lived in this land, if they had sons and then if their sons had wives who already lived in Americas, if they had many more descendants, if 2,500 years passed. Will their descendants have Middle East DNA? if yes why? if no, why?
This is all I want to know for now.

yes or no? and why?

I think I get the gist of your question now, which is "won't their genes be so diluted over time that they will be undetectable?" Well... if their descendants die out then yes. But if their descendants form a tribe of related individuals (as described by your mythology), preserving customs of tribal intermarriage etc then the genes will survive. This is what has happened with the Lemba. So in my understanding, yes, there should be traces if your Lamanite story is correct.

There are other examples. IIRC there are traces of Alexander the Great's soldiers intermarrying with the local guys in Iran and Afghanistan. The Mongolian Golden Horde settled in Russia and their descendants are still around today. Going even further back than the Lemba, there's a well documented Bantu migration from central Africa to Southern Africa about 1000 years ago. These migrations are not traced soley by DNA analysis, linguistic analysis and other fields such as archaeology also agree.

A couple of guys jumping in a boat does not equate to a mass migration, however, and a big migration such as that of ten tribes of Israel *would* leave a trace.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-05-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 11:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 01:25 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Making assumptions like this, being utterly baseless (come on, having all female children die, really? Why?)...it shows you are not looking for the truth (= that what comports to reality) but you are desperately trying to keep your delusion alive.
is it not possible that between two men they had 1 daughter and then that daughter died at a very young age?
I know many LDS families who have 13 boys and not even girl.

I think you are trying to link the mtDNA through Laman? Are you wondering how the mtDNA could pass along if no females lived to breeding age?

If so, mtDNA and yDNA (through the male) are NOT needed for proof. OTHER genetic markers are ALSO available which can prove where the American Indians came from. The sex of the offspring wouldn't matter.

Does this help?

Let me say this too... I know you're not stupid or dumb or whatever word you put on yourself. You're simply learning, and we all go through moments of confusion and get frustrated. Hang in there!!! Heart

Cheers
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08-05-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 11:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 01:25 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Making assumptions like this, being utterly baseless (come on, having all female children die, really? Why?)...it shows you are not looking for the truth (= that what comports to reality) but you are desperately trying to keep your delusion alive.
is it not possible that between two men they had 1 daughter and then that daughter died at a very young age?
I know many LDS families who have 13 boys and not even girl.

Are you refering to mitochondrial DNA? Its irrelevant to this discussion, sice we determine ancestry of whole populations not only by maternal DNA.

But lets keep evaluating your argument nevertheless:
You want to argue that all maternal lines of all the "middle eastern settlers in the americas" died out in the past 2500y? Good luck with that! The fact that you know (a few) families with no female decendants doesnt add one jota credibility to this argument. We are talking about all maternal lines dying out in the process.
As i said before, you keep looking for loopoles in the lack of DNA evidence for your preconceived notion, in order to stuff a few settlers from the middle east in. Settlers for which there is ab-so-lutely no evidence as has been explained to you. Thats not how rational thinking works!

I will give you even a counter example:
Just recently in the UK an excavation brought forward what was thought to be the remains of king Richard III ("A horse, my kingdom for a horse!"). He was killed over 500y ago! It was intended to identify him by DNA. Since with Richard himself the male line died out, they were looking for a decendant of the female line. Now guess what, they had somebody who could conclusively show that he was a decendant entirely of the female line, and it was shown that he had the same mitochondrial DNA as the remains. So if the maternal DNA of a single guy doesnt die out in 500+y, what about a huge bunch of people "only" 2500y ago?

No coins, no language, no clothing, no rituals or traditions, no ruins, no mentioning in the tales of neighbouring/accompanying cultures, no DNA, no jewely, no bones, no carvings, no tools, nothing, zero, nada, ничего. Nothing of all that stuff that has been found of every other people has been found of Smiths settlers. We even have solid evidence for the existence of Neanderthals and other human sub-species. And they are at least ten times older than the supposed to be remains of your settlers.

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08-05-2016, 04:34 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 11:56 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 11:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  is it not possible that between two men they had 1 daughter and then that daughter died at a very young age?
I know many LDS families who have 13 boys and not even girl.
Alla, it doesn't matter what gender the off spring is their DNA will be there period. DNA doesn't care what gender who are expect to tell the different between male and female. So no matter how you slice it or try to make it fit it will never ever be true.
I understand this.
But still "thank you".

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08-05-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 12:12 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 11:26 AM)Alla Wrote:  I thank all of you for the help. I need to digest all the information. If it was not you I wouldn't take my Evolution 101 course from evolution.berkeley.edu
I wouldn't re-learned about cells and DNA. I am learning a lot. I think all of you deserve big, big thank you for that.
But because I am not as bright as all of you and I am not pro in genetics and stuff I may have hard time to understand everything you say.

So, saying all this I still don't feel like I have an answer to my specific question (may be because I was born too stupid).
So, please, forgive me.
My question: if there are two men who came from Middle East to Americas and if they took wives from the population who already lived in this land, if they had sons and then if their sons had wives who already lived in Americas, if they had many more descendants, if 2,500 years passed. Will their descendants have Middle East DNA? if yes why? if no, why?
This is all I want to know for now.

yes or no? and why?

I think I get the gist of your question now, which is "won't their genes be so diluted over time that they will be undetectable?" Well... if their descendants die out then yes. But if their descendants form a tribe of related individuals (as described by your mythology), preserving customs of tribal intermarriage etc then the genes will survive. This is what has happened with the Lemba. So in my understanding, yes, there should be traces if your Lamanite story is correct.

There are other examples. IIRC there are traces of Alexander the Great's soldiers intermarrying with the local guys in Iran and Afghanistan. The Mongolian Golden Horde settled in Russia and their descendants are still around today. Going even further back than the Lemba, there's a well documented Bantu migration from central Africa to Southern Africa about 1000 years ago. These migrations are not traced soley by DNA analysis, linguistic analysis and other fields such as archaeology also agree.

A couple of guys jumping in a boat does not equate to a mass migration, however, and a big migration such as that of ten tribes of Israel *would* leave a trace.
thank you

So, I want to be sure I understood you correctly.

two men from the Middle East came to Americas 2,600 years ago.
they had wives who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
their had children.
their children had wives and husbands who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
there were wars among the people in the land. there were diseases.

2,600 years later descendants of these two men will have Middle East DNA.
Correct?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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08-05-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 12:22 PM)Skittles Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 11:32 AM)Alla Wrote:  is it not possible that between two men they had 1 daughter and then that daughter died at a very young age?
I know many LDS families who have 13 boys and not even girl.

I think you are trying to link the mtDNA through Laman? Are you wondering how the mtDNA could pass along if no females lived to breeding age?

If so, mtDNA and yDNA (through the male) are NOT needed for proof. OTHER genetic markers are ALSO available which can prove where the American Indians came from. The sex of the offspring wouldn't matter.

Does this help?

Let me say this too... I know you're not stupid or dumb or whatever word you put on yourself. You're simply learning, and we all go through moments of confusion and get frustrated. Hang in there!!! Heart

Cheers
thank you.
You are true virtual friend Smile

Cheers
I still have to respond to some of your comments. But one step at a time. Agree?

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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09-05-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(08-05-2016 04:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 12:12 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think I get the gist of your question now, which is "won't their genes be so diluted over time that they will be undetectable?" Well... if their descendants die out then yes. But if their descendants form a tribe of related individuals (as described by your mythology), preserving customs of tribal intermarriage etc then the genes will survive. This is what has happened with the Lemba. So in my understanding, yes, there should be traces if your Lamanite story is correct.

There are other examples. IIRC there are traces of Alexander the Great's soldiers intermarrying with the local guys in Iran and Afghanistan. The Mongolian Golden Horde settled in Russia and their descendants are still around today. Going even further back than the Lemba, there's a well documented Bantu migration from central Africa to Southern Africa about 1000 years ago. These migrations are not traced soley by DNA analysis, linguistic analysis and other fields such as archaeology also agree.

A couple of guys jumping in a boat does not equate to a mass migration, however, and a big migration such as that of ten tribes of Israel *would* leave a trace.
thank you

So, I want to be sure I understood you correctly.

two men from the Middle East came to Americas 2,600 years ago.
they had wives who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
their had children.
their children had wives and husbands who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
there were wars among the people in the land. there were diseases.

2,600 years later descendants of these two men will have Middle East DNA.
Correct?

In my understanding, yes, their genes (aka Middle East DNA) will be preserved. I'm not an expert though. The specific scenario that you're asking about *may* contain a loophole! OMG! Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-05-2016, 12:32 AM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(09-05-2016 12:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 04:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  thank you

So, I want to be sure I understood you correctly.

two men from the Middle East came to Americas 2,600 years ago.
they had wives who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
their had children.
their children had wives and husbands who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
there were wars among the people in the land. there were diseases.

2,600 years later descendants of these two men will have Middle East DNA.
Correct?

In my understanding, yes, their genes (aka Middle East DNA) will be preserved. I'm not an expert though. The specific scenario that you're asking about *may* contain a loophole! OMG! Tongue

Of course they will preserved. Every person is a mix of the DNA from his father and mother. So if a continuous line of decendants of a single person does exist until the cuurrent time, parts of this persons genes will be present in current persons genes. Its just a matter how hard this DNA is to identify. If you already have a person to compare with its not so hard. If you want to make statrements without something to compare to its harder and if you are having only two males and not an entire population (are you really willing to follow the road of "there was only one single guy from the middle east...." just to keep your fairy tale alive?) its getting closer to "impossible or invest an insane amount of time and $" .

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09-05-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(09-05-2016 12:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 04:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  thank you

So, I want to be sure I understood you correctly.

two men from the Middle East came to Americas 2,600 years ago.
they had wives who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
their had children.
their children had wives and husbands who already lived in Americas and many of their ancestors were from Americas
there were wars among the people in the land. there were diseases.

2,600 years later descendants of these two men will have Middle East DNA.
Correct?

In my understanding, yes, their genes (aka Middle East DNA) will be preserved. I'm not an expert though. The specific scenario that you're asking about *may* contain a loophole! OMG! Tongue
I will talk to someone who may know the answer, who is not LDS and who shouldn't know that I am LDS.
can you explain to me in plain language why in your understanding the answer is "yes"?

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09-05-2016, 12:53 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2016 01:12 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(09-05-2016 12:44 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 12:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  In my understanding, yes, their genes (aka Middle East DNA) will be preserved. I'm not an expert though. The specific scenario that you're asking about *may* contain a loophole! OMG! Tongue
I will talk to someone who may know the answer, who is not LDS and who shouldn't know that I am LDS.
can you explain to me in plain language why in your understanding the answer is "yes"?

Here is a rather simple slide-show presentation that explains things so simply that you might even be able to get it.

http://media.hhmi.org/biointeractive/cli...ns/01.html

In short, descendants of Native Americans and the supposed Lost Tribes of Israel would have genetic markers that more recent inhabitants of the Middle East carried but would otherwise be nonexistent in the rest of the Native Americans. We've never found evidence for this, and thus, the evidence refutes the claims in the Book of Mormon.

Can those genetic markers be 'bred out'? No. Could the entire population have died off, leaving no descendants with such markers? Possibly, but not probable. So when you combine the total lack of genetic evidence, with the complete lack of archaeological evidence (no infrastructure, no tools, no art, etc.) and Smith's own terrible personal record (admitted to and convicted of fraud, lied about being able to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs), we can only conclude that it is all a fabrication. With no reason think Smith is telling the truth, and every reason to doubt him, that's all a reasonable person can conclude.

The stories are fiction.

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