why would a deity need to take attendance ?
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18-04-2016, 03:00 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(15-04-2016 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I forgot about Mormon prophets. IIRC Mormon prophets refine and adjust Mormon practices as time passes. Judaism has sort of similar process, but we do not believe that anyone is an actual prophet or that G-d influences these proceedings. Changes to the observance of law are made through the Rabbis who evaluate Jewish law and the social climate. It can kind of be a tug of war until we settle on a new practice that suits everyone. And, the Jewish people have been known to tell the Rabbis to stick it when they’ve come up with a practice that we’ve found impractical or unreasonable.
Interesting. It only makes sense when you know that rules are made by mortal imperfect men. When rules are given by perfect and intelligent God they work perfectly even among imperfect men. This is what I believe. I also believe that God doesn't give His laws to please everyone/anyone. God gives laws because they are good for us.

(15-04-2016 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Okay, but I have a question relating to the question asked by OP.
Christianity, and by extension, Mormonism, does not get their tithing practice from us Jews. I was recently asked in another post to explain Jewish donation practice, which you can review here.
I read it and I thank you for sharing this information with us. It was interesting read.
(15-04-2016 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I have heard that Mormon practice is very different from Jewish practice and that church administration not only expects 10% of your income to go to them (and only them), but they actually check income statements from members to confirm that they’re getting the share of funds they believe is due to them.
This is sort of a way of “taking attendance” and keeping tabs on church members. My question for you is whether or not this actually happens, and if not, how you might feel about such practice being revealed?
Nobody ever asked me about my income statements and I am a member of the Church since May 2003. I never heard anybody told me that they were asked.
So, if this is a practice then for some reason they decided to exclude me, my husband, my mother, and my 24 year old son who pays his tithing.

10% of tithing are used only for the following:

1. to build, maintain, and operate temples, meeting houses, and other buildings.
2. to provide operating funds for stakes, wards, and other units of the Church.
3. to help the missionary program
4. to educate young people in Church schools, seminaries, and institutes.
5. to print and to distribute lesson materials
6. to help on family history and temple work.
Church leaders are the only people who have keys from God to build temples and to prepare materials
I trust them that they know what they are doing. We have beautiful temples in perfect conditions. They are maintained very well. Family history work is growing. We have plenty of Church materials and meeting houses are perfect, we have all we need in them for all kinds of activities including funeral services and wedding parties.

Beside 10% (tithing) I give fasting offering. What is fast offering? Once a month I fast and money that I would spend for two meals I donate to my ward NOT to Church administration in Salt Lake City. How much do I give? It is up to me and I was asked to be as generous as possible.
Where do this money go?
Bishops use this money to provide food, shelter, clothing, and medical care for the needy.
Why bishops? Why not me? why isn't it a needy of my choice?
I will explain why it is such a brilli

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18-04-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(16-04-2016 10:29 AM)Skittles Wrote:  Thank you for responding Alla. I agree with you that the bible was written by imperfect men.
You speak of "correct translation" and have implied that it was NOT translated correctly. Are you fluent in Greek, Hebrew or even possibly Aramaic? Have you spoken with genuine "expert" translators or just people who claim to know a few words here and there?
I don't even know those languages. But I trust people who claim to be experts.
I also can say that I don't have to speak those languages to know that there are contradictions in the Bible. Contradictions is evidence of errors.
(16-04-2016 10:29 AM)Skittles Wrote:  This is important because you are speaking of "translations" as if you are an expert in the languages, or maybe you know an expert and can share this information. Maybe you can give an example of these bad translations so we can find out for ourselves?
Cheers
One example and you can be the judge. Or anybody else can be the judge. May be Aliza?

What I am going to share is copy paste and not my own thoughts/words:

The Hebrew word translated as "created" means "shaped, fashioned; always a divine activity" Genesis 1:1.

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained:

"You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing: and they will answer, "doesn't the Bible say He created the world?"
And they infer, from the world create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word BAURAU which does NOT mean to create out of nothing; it means TO ORGANIZE; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos - chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end."

Another example:
Genesis 1:28 word "replenish". Replenish connotes something is being filled again that was once filled before: Re - again, plenus - full.
Hebrew verb MOLE(pronounced Mah-lay) meaning fill, to fill, or make full. this word Mole is the same as in Genesis 1:22



Cheers.

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18-04-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
Aliza, for some reason the rest of my answer didn't appear. I will explain why It is such a brilliant idea that bishops make decision whom to help and me.
But I have to pick up my kids from school now. I will be back soon.

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18-04-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
TO ALIZA

Why is it giving fast offering money to bishops is such a brilliant idea in my opinion?
It was a time when my husband lost his job when we lived in LA, Calif. For about 6-7 month he couldn't find anything. How to survive when there are no savings? We could loan some money which means more debt. Or we could ask different people to help us to survive.
But what if it is too humiliating for? What if we don't want the whole ward to know about all our problems?
There is a perfect solution. I don't need to look for help in different places. I KNOW that there is ONE place and ONE person who can help me to take care of all my financial problems. It is Mormon Bishop. His duty is to take care of his sheep's spiritual and TEMPORAL needs.
For about 6-7 month our rent was paid, our bills were paid, including car payments. We could order food every 2 weeks. Bishop Storehouses are like supermarkets - there are all kinds of food and housing items, all you need. We fill out the form - how much of food we need for our family for two weeks. We are TRUSTED that we take exactly what we need and that we will not take an advantage and not order more then we need. Just like in communist society. Society that all communists dream about. But who needs communism or socialism when you are a member of Christ Church? Who needs socialism and communism when you belong to God's covenant people house of Israel?

So, when I give my money to bishop I KNOW how he will spend them. I don't have to worry about needy in my ward, I KNOW there is one person who will do this for me. He will take care of EVERYTHING. Nobody has to feel embarrass. Bishop helps privately. He doesn't tell about people's problems. Brilliant!
I also can help any individual I want besides I pay my tithing and beside I give fast offering. I can give as much as I can and as much as I need.
Tithing are NOT my money that is why it is not up to me how to spend them. Those are God's money.
But after 10% I can choose whom I want to help if I can. fast offering as I said before is perfect solution. I know that all needy in my ward are taken care of like I was taken care of once.

P.S. If I knew that Church asks income statements I would be shocked. It would contradict LDS Doctrine.

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18-04-2016, 05:26 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(12-04-2016 02:15 PM)Skittles Wrote:  My memory has faded on the details of that verse but the important part of that verse, the part of the answer that has stuck in my brain for all these years is that the verse says, "eternal punishment" not, "eternal punish(ING)."

That is most certainly a distinction without a difference.
Why you think that is meaningful entirely escapes me and it sounds like typical apologetics horseshit. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Taking this verse with the other verses, in both old and new testaments, it was easy for me to "see" that God had no intentions of burning us "alive" for all eternity.

Please explain that in clear, unequivocal language including actual Bible verses in context.

Hint: Bet you can't.

Quote:I read the verses as the lake of fire is for the devil and his demons to be kept in jail (so to speak) and that the fire has to be kept burning forever in order to keep Satan and his fallen angles away from the "good" humans that get to live forever on the Earth or in heaven... Whatever the case may be.

I fall back on Jeremiah 7:31 where the Bible claims that god said, "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

That verse talks about what people did - it has nothing to do with Hell.

Quote:I will gladly re-examine my findings but I don't even believe a god exists so I don't know if it's really necessary unless it can help someone else. Thumbsup

Cheers

I suggest you do.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-04-2016, 05:32 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(12-04-2016 03:10 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  However during there time they would have thought there would have been 11 planets.
Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Vesta, Juno, Ceres, Pallas, Jupiter, Saturn & Uranus.

I rather doubt that. Only Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn are visible to the naked eye.

Quote:During this time astronomers called any cluster of light in the sky a planet. If she could provide a document predating 1846 from here profits, that talked about Neptune or even the astrode belt that would be something.

They did not think of Earth as a planet.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-04-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(18-04-2016 03:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(16-04-2016 10:29 AM)Skittles Wrote:  Thank you for responding Alla. I agree with you that the bible was written by imperfect men.
You speak of "correct translation" and have implied that it was NOT translated correctly. Are you fluent in Greek, Hebrew or even possibly Aramaic? Have you spoken with genuine "expert" translators or just people who claim to know a few words here and there?
I don't even know those languages. But I trust people who claim to be experts.
I also can say that I don't have to speak those languages to know that there are contradictions in the Bible. Contradictions is evidence of errors.
(16-04-2016 10:29 AM)Skittles Wrote:  This is important because you are speaking of "translations" as if you are an expert in the languages, or maybe you know an expert and can share this information. Maybe you can give an example of these bad translations so we can find out for ourselves?
Cheers
One example and you can be the judge. Or anybody else can be the judge. May be Aliza?

What I am going to share is copy paste and not my own thoughts/words:

The Hebrew word translated as "created" means "shaped, fashioned; always a divine activity" Genesis 1:1.

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained:

"You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing: and they will answer, "doesn't the Bible say He created the world?"
And they infer, from the world create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word BAURAU which does NOT mean to create out of nothing; it means TO ORGANIZE; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos - chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end."

Another example:
Genesis 1:28 word "replenish". Replenish connotes something is being filled again that was once filled before: Re - again, plenus - full.
Hebrew verb MOLE(pronounced Mah-lay) meaning fill, to fill, or make full. this word Mole is the same as in Genesis 1:22



Cheers.


I didn't recognize your "copy and paste" so I did a search to find out your source. I would appreciate your sources to be listed in the future in order to expedite our conversation. I'll try to remember to do the same. Smile

This is what I found in my search...

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament...n?lang=eng

That is the site I found your quote on. ^

This next link comes from the same site, it's the Preface from the student manual of your quote.
https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament...e?lang=eng

This is a small clip from the preface...
"Such an effort to translate the Bible scriptures by the power of the Holy Ghost was begun by the Prophet Joseph Smith under the direction of, and at the command of, the Lord (see D&C 45:60–61; 93:53)."
Emphasis mine.

I'm sorry but your source is fatally flawed. You have not provided an expert, in the field of translation, and therefore you cannot possibly know if the translation that you provided is correct or incorrect.

I have a book on leprechauns, do you believe everything I tell you about leprechauns now?

No, you don't, even if I tell you my book says leprechauns are believed to be fake, it won't change the fact that I have no EXPERTS to back up my statement. I'm afraid your "source" is the same type of thing... I don't find Joseph Smith, the holy ghost and the lord to be credible. Sorry.

So is that the basis of your beliefs? Some guy said so...? Because right now you only have a quote from some guy, named Joseph Smith, claiming to know something that has no backing to it.

Cheers
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18-04-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
Skittles, I told you that I believe that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly.
I read my Bible in English and I see word "replenish". I read my Bible in Russian and I see word "fill". My conclusion: there is an error in one of the translations. I don't even need to know Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek to figured this out.
I am not going to argue with you which translation is correct.

Cheers

P.S. Do you agree with me that if I see that my English Bible has word "replenish" and my Russian Bible has word "fill" AS A BELIVER IN GOD YAHWEH I can say "I believe that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is TRANSLATED correctly"?

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18-04-2016, 10:53 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(18-04-2016 05:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-04-2016 02:15 PM)Skittles Wrote:  My memory has faded on the details of that verse but the important part of that verse, the part of the answer that has stuck in my brain for all these years is that the verse says, "eternal punishment" not, "eternal punish(ING)."

That is most certainly a distinction without a difference.
Why you think that is meaningful entirely escapes me and it sounds like typical apologetics horseshit. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Taking this verse with the other verses, in both old and new testaments, it was easy for me to "see" that God had no intentions of burning us "alive" for all eternity.

Please explain that in clear, unequivocal language including actual Bible verses in context.

Hint: Bet you can't.

Quote:I read the verses as the lake of fire is for the devil and his demons to be kept in jail (so to speak) and that the fire has to be kept burning forever in order to keep Satan and his fallen angles away from the "good" humans that get to live forever on the Earth or in heaven... Whatever the case may be.

I fall back on Jeremiah 7:31 where the Bible claims that god said, "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

That verse talks about what people did - it has nothing to do with Hell.

Quote:I will gladly re-examine my findings but I don't even believe a god exists so I don't know if it's really necessary unless it can help someone else. Thumbsup

Cheers

I suggest you do.

I haven't quite figured out how to separate out the conversation yet, like all of you can, so please bear with me.

As to your 1st statement, you are right in saying it sounds like typical apologetics horseshit because I was raised that way. I'm trying to escape that type of language but sometimes I'll mention how I can understand why/how someone can come to certain conclusions, given a Christian background.

The distinction without a difference is possibly true, however the difference between ment vs. ing did make a difference in my reasoning 30 years ago. I still see the difference even though it doesn't matter anymore, to me.

I'll focus more time on your 2nd point since you asked for unequivocal language. I'll try not to disappoint...

Malachi 4:1-3 speaks of the wicked being ashes under the feet of the righteous.

Ashes come from fire. Ashes are not fire. This said (to me) that the wicked would burn until they could burn no more and simply be ashes.

Matthew 18:8-9 says the fire would be forever and that verse simply tells me which fire, the one that's reserved for the devil and his crew.

Matthew 10:28 has Jesus warning of "The One" that can kill both body and soul in hell.

Revelation 20:6 Speaks of the second death. Death is pretty much known as a state of unconsciousness, more-so, then a state of unimaginable fire torture. The wording falls in line with a "not forever hell fire for humans."

Revelation 20:9-10 says that the devil, beast and false prophet will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say that for the humans. It does go on to say...

Revelation 20:13-15 humans will experience their second death, by fire. I don't have a clue how long it takes to die a second death, but I didn't and don't see it as "forever in a lake of fire."

I'm sorry this is so out of order but I'm trying to remember key verses from 3 decades ago. I'm just thankful for the internet for getting me this far.

My opinion of hell, back when I cared about it, was a place I would do anything to avoid because I didn't want to spend even 1 minute in that place. I just didn't believe god was heartless enough to burn his children forever.

I later learned (while still being a Christian) that history backed up my suspicions that hell was an added concept to the Christian Bible. It was stuff like this that led me to throw it all out eventually.

Do you have any verses that support a hell fire forever for humans?

Thanks for looking at this with me. I appreciate input.

Cheers
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18-04-2016, 11:38 PM
RE: why would a deity need to take attendance ?
(18-04-2016 09:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  Skittles, I told you that I believe that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly.
I read my Bible in English and I see word "replenish". I read my Bible in Russian and I see word "fill". My conclusion: there is an error in one of the translations. I don't even need to know Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek to figured this out.
I am not going to argue with you which translation is correct.

Cheers

P.S. Do you agree with me that if I see that my English Bible has word "replenish" and my Russian Bible has word "fill" AS A BELIVER IN GOD YAHWEH I can say "I believe that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is TRANSLATED correctly"?

I'm sorry you felt the need to explain how you know the bible isn't perfect. I can't stress enough that I agree with you that the bible has errors. My statement was, "I don't believe the bible to be the word of any god (anymore) so I'm completely open to hearing your side of what the bible means to you and how high it is on the "truthful meter," in your own opinion, of course."

That's when you gave a quote from Joseph Smith. It didn't really answer the question, but implied you believed what this guy named Joseph Smith said because that's what you referenced.

Shall we try again? Smile

Cheers
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