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15-03-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
(15-03-2015 02:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:52 PM)Αθεία Αμβρόσιος Wrote:  I will assume from this response, you don't agree with me. Unfortunately that doesn't fit into my world view, so... *alerts the thought police*

But in all seriousness. I can see and appreciate your point about not being able to control people's lives. I just would like to see a world where homelessness is a thing of the past, not through some charitable effort, but through hard work and an innate strive to better oneself. The scenario I painted was only one of many I have imagined would benefit the country/society. As I said before, it was a purely hypothetical scenario.

What would you suggest to help the homeless not be homeless, and find work?

Are you aware that a great many of the homeless have mental and physical issues? Many others, through no fault of their own, have been given a horrible hand to play whether through abuse, neglect or upbringing. Sometimes all the above rolled into one poor, disfunctioning individual.

It sounds to me as though you think all the homeless are deadbeats or am I misunderstanding you?

You cannot legislate away any of those problems I listed above.

You do misunderstand me. Although I did not state it, I am aware that many things may lead to homelessness, not least of which are issues of mental/physical difficulties. My suggestions were inclusive only to the able-minded and able-bodied homeless. Whereas with any disabled, or mentally/physically damaged persons ought be cared for by family, and failing that, by the state. The deadbeats are the ones I am concerned about. Those who fell foul of intoxicating liquors and substances. Those who are poor but able through no fault of their own (be it difficult family issues in upbringing, or sudden financial ruin in later life).

I was hypothesizing a situation in which those people could be helped, whilst not being a total drain of resources. I'm not trying to be unkind, or perhaps the language I use does not fully gauge what I am trying to iterate, but please understand there is no ill-will held toward these people. Perhaps calling them a drain on resources without them paying back into society was a bit blunt, but I cannot think of another way to address them.

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15-03-2015, 04:35 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
Who would decide what category all these people fall into?
The government? It seems that in itself would be a drain.
What about folks who can't work but have been waiting two years to get disability (like me), money that they paid into the system for just this reason? Would the government suddenly become more efficient?
It seems like you're trying to relieve the burden on the government by giving them more to do.
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15-03-2015, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2015 08:25 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: wow Florida wow
(15-03-2015 04:22 PM)Αθεία Αμβρόσιος Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 02:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Are you aware that a great many of the homeless have mental and physical issues? Many others, through no fault of their own, have been given a horrible hand to play whether through abuse, neglect or upbringing. Sometimes all the above rolled into one poor, disfunctioning individual.

It sounds to me as though you think all the homeless are deadbeats or am I misunderstanding you?

You cannot legislate away any of those problems I listed above.

You do misunderstand me. Although I did not state it, I am aware that many things may lead to homelessness, not least of which are issues of mental/physical difficulties. My suggestions were inclusive only to the able-minded and able-bodied homeless. Whereas with any disabled, or mentally/physically damaged persons ought be cared for by family, and failing that, by the state. The deadbeats are the ones I am concerned about. Those who fell foul of intoxicating liquors and substances. Those who are poor but able through no fault of their own (be it difficult family issues in upbringing, or sudden financial ruin in later life).

I was hypothesizing a situation in which those people could be helped, whilst not being a total drain of resources. I'm not trying to be unkind, or perhaps the language I use does not fully gauge what I am trying to iterate, but please understand there is no ill-will held toward these people. Perhaps calling them a drain on resources without them paying back into society was a bit blunt, but I cannot think of another way to address them.

I dislike free-loaders as much as the next guy and helping those that want to be helped is a worthy goal

Utopian goals, while commendable, will always fall short and it is incumbent upon the us all to acknowledge that not everyone can be helped and not everyone wants to be helped.

There will always be those that do not pull their weight either because they cannot or they choose not to. Enacting laws or Draconian measures to weed them out is fraught with pitfalls and will invariably cause more harm than good (see OP).

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-03-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
I would be interested to see a study analyzing the portion of homeless persons that are "freeloaders."


Ok. I'm gonna rant a bit. I may or may not come back with a post with stats and resources, we'll see.

I get really passionate about this topic. I can't stand to see people mistreated. The homeless are termed a "vulnerable population" - they sure do make for easy targets. Dodgy Easy to kick a man when he's down, right?

We have an area of Huntsville called "Tent City" where many of the homeless live together. Rape, beatings, stabbings, etc are not uncommon. Being homeless is not for pussies.

I had a lot of interaction with homeless persons when I worked in the ED. Most had a psych history, many had drug and/or alcohol addiction. Some were looking for work, many were not capable of holding down a job. Look deeper and you find PTSD from war, abuse, neglect, etc - a broken person who has failed to cope and whose resources ran dry.

Every now and then I'd come across a temporarily homeless single parent who lost their job and got kicked out of their apartment. Those people don't usually "stay" homeless - they eventually get jobs and get back on their feet again. Can you imagine being in that position? Where you've lost your job, your home, you have no money, you don't know where your next meal is coming from? And what about a bath and presentable, ironed clothing for your next job interview?

I met one person who said he "chooses" to be homeless. He told me he had "anger problems" and chose to isolate himself from others. Still, this is a psych issue.

Do I go hand out money to people begging on the street? No, I'm aware it's probably going to be used to buy mouthwash (for drinking) or crack or meth. But if I'm stopped outside of a restaurant by someone who is hungry, I'll give them my leftovers or go back in and order something to go, especially for the schizophrenics.

We had a clothes closet at the ED supplied by our staff - we didn't get tax write offs for it, we just wanted to make sure the people we served left the department with clothes on their backs. In the winter we would bring in blankets and coats that would get distributed to the local homeless - we didn't want to see them coming in for hypothermia. If it were incredibly cold outside, we knew we'd be seeing more homeless patients - I'd put a smile on my face, grab them a warm blanket, a sandwich tray, juice, and get back to my other patients. I'd look the other way if they walked out with the blanket because it might just be something to save their life the next night - after all, saving lives is a part of my job description.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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15-03-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
(15-03-2015 08:19 PM)Nurse Wrote:  I'd put a smile on my face, grab them a warm blanket, a sandwich tray, juice, and get back to my other patients. I'd look the other way if they walked out with the blanket because it might just be something to save their life the next night - after all, saving lives is a part of my job description.

You’re awesomsauce!

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-03-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
(15-03-2015 01:52 PM)Αθεία Αμβρόσιος Wrote:  What would you suggest to help the homeless not be homeless, and find work?

They are homeless because society ignores them... I'm a bit socialist in my views. Aid programs where they participate voluntarily is more useful IMO. Can't say I've given it detailed thought.

You know, working for the good of society is a grand concept too - I don't see that I have any obligation to fit into that. We evolved as apes for millions of years without this bizarre notion that our reason for existence is to work... Although it's *good* to work I can't see that it should be obligatory.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-03-2015, 10:27 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
I spent about a year homeless. If I can't get disability I might end up there again. I don't think forced labor would improve the situation.
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16-03-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
(15-03-2015 04:35 PM)pablo Wrote:  Who would decide what category all these people fall into?
The government? It seems that in itself would be a drain.
What about folks who can't work but have been waiting two years to get disability (like me), money that they paid into the system for just this reason? Would the government suddenly become more efficient?
It seems like you're trying to relieve the burden on the government by giving them more to do.

There is no burden on the government. Not when they're being paid a substantial sum to do the job. It's like any job (mine included), you have work stress. My idea was purely as a suggestion for what might be done for the homeless (i.e. a work for food program). Force was only a factor when someone is so obstinate that they outright refused to work, despite the possibility of starvation in the face of someone offering them food in return for labour.

I personally don't see the logic in refusing work in return for food and shelter while homeless. It's like you're dedicating your life to failing to thrive.

As for your disability allowance, I don't know your personal situation, or whether you are deserving of it or not. If you care to clarify, go ahead. But in my personal opinion (which the grand total of me, may care about), if it seems to be in question, maybe there is a reason for that. Don't take it personally, though.

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16-03-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
(15-03-2015 09:47 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:52 PM)Αθεία Αμβρόσιος Wrote:  What would you suggest to help the homeless not be homeless, and find work?

They are homeless because society ignores them... I'm a bit socialist in my views. Aid programs where they participate voluntarily is more useful IMO. Can't say I've given it detailed thought.

You know, working for the good of society is a grand concept too - I don't see that I have any obligation to fit into that. We evolved as apes for millions of years without this bizarre notion that our reason for existence is to work... Although it's *good* to work I can't see that it should be obligatory.

What would you have in opposition to obligation to work?

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16-03-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: wow Florida wow
(16-03-2015 03:46 PM)Αθεία Αμβρόσιος Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 09:47 PM)morondog Wrote:  They are homeless because society ignores them... I'm a bit socialist in my views. Aid programs where they participate voluntarily is more useful IMO. Can't say I've given it detailed thought.

You know, working for the good of society is a grand concept too - I don't see that I have any obligation to fit into that. We evolved as apes for millions of years without this bizarre notion that our reason for existence is to work... Although it's *good* to work I can't see that it should be obligatory.

What would you have in opposition to obligation to work?

Perhaps one doesn't see the desire to "thrive" in the way you view thriving in striving for the things you may deem good. It could come from an objection of my ideologies depending on what it was really requiring of me, and if that was deemed not a better system for me, why should I accept it?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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