wtf are noetics?
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10-07-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 06:45 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I do however believe the universe doesn't exist (technically) without a mind for the simple reason that the only reason we know the universe exists without them is that we already had/have brains to determine this and take that all away and this conversation never happened and we are just a bunch of rocks and therefor proof, and words like existence or everything we know doesnt exist because knowing itself wouldn't be there so....yeah, infinite regressions of X wouldn't exist and lots of therefors etc etc, all leading to what is basically

That's quite muddled. Consider

If the universe is 13.7 billion years old and minds may have only existed for a couple hundred thousand years, then ... ?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-07-2014, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2014 07:09 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: wtf are noetics?
(09-07-2014 10:46 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  It is what you get when a Buddhist mates with a Scientologist.

There's noe place like om. There's noe place like om.
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10-07-2014, 07:09 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(09-07-2014 10:40 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I keep seeing questions about whatever....these are here and there.

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but, wtf are they exactly? Wikipedia is not very helpful.

if I was single Unsure I am quite confident I could "knock" the faith right outa her Blush Blink Drooling hehe i kid i kid

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10-07-2014, 07:32 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 09:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-07-2014 06:45 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I do however believe the universe doesn't exist (technically) without a mind for the simple reason that the only reason we know the universe exists without them is that we already had/have brains to determine this and take that all away and this conversation never happened and we are just a bunch of rocks and therefor proof, and words like existence or everything we know doesnt exist because knowing itself wouldn't be there so....yeah, infinite regressions of X wouldn't exist and lots of therefors etc etc, all leading to what is basically

That's quite muddled. Consider

If the universe is 13.7 billion years old and minds may have only existed for a couple hundred thousand years, then ... ?

Then the universe is 13.7 billion years old because we came along with a mind to confirm and achnowledge it. But, if the mind does not exist, nothing matters and therefor we must assume nothing exists.


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10-07-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 07:32 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Then the universe is 13.7 billion years old because we came along with a mind to confirm and achnowledge it. But, if the mind does not exist, nothing matters and therefor we must assume nothing exists.

You frame that is if>then>then.

Neither leap is warranted...

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10-07-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 09:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-07-2014 06:45 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I do however believe the universe doesn't exist (technically) without a mind for the simple reason that the only reason we know the universe exists without them is that we already had/have brains to determine this and take that all away and this conversation never happened and we are just a bunch of rocks and therefor proof, and words like existence or everything we know doesnt exist because knowing itself wouldn't be there so....yeah, infinite regressions of X wouldn't exist and lots of therefors etc etc, all leading to what is basically

That's quite muddled. Consider

If the universe is 13.7 billion years old and minds may have only existed for a couple hundred thousand years, then ... ?

Then the universe is 13.7 billion years old because we came along with a mind to confirm and achnowledge it. But, if the mind does not exist, nothing matters and therefor we must assume nothing exists.

So despite the fact that it has existed before us, since existence as we know it IS our consiousness, any argument that it does exist before us is pointless as we would never had known it existed previously to begin with in the first place because of our consiousness. Therefore we must assume that if Humanity never existed in the first place, neither would the universe because without perceiving it to begin with.
Nothing matters and therefore nothing exists.

I had a long discussion trying to explain this so someone who was not getting it. They were not arguing that it was wrong, just that they didn't understand fully.

One last time, If we never existed to begin with. Nothing matters, Never did matter, never did we ever explore the universe to find that it existed before us. There for since we never existed. Neither does anything else.

Go outside, look for a person who does not exist and ask them if the universe exists and you will get a good idea of what I mean.


On Topic:

So if this noetics thing is so dead, why do people still mention it?


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10-07-2014, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2014 08:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: wtf are noetics?
The universe produced us. Therefore it has to exist without us. It existed long BEFORE brains evolved. Doesn't matter if "we" exist. There are, no doubt, other beings in the universe.

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10-07-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 08:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The universe produced us. Therefore it has to exist without us. It existed long BEFORE brains evolved. Doesn't matter if "we" exist. There are no doubt other beings in the universe.

I suppose other beings could inherently break that chain as well and therefore give acknowledgment to existence and be able to discern history through science etc.


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10-07-2014, 08:36 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 07:42 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Then the universe is 13.7 billion years old because we came along with a mind to confirm and achnowledge it. But, if the mind does not exist, nothing matters and therefor we must assume nothing exists.

So despite the fact that it has existed before us, since existence as we know it IS our consiousness, any argument that it does exist before us is pointless as we would never had known it existed previously to begin with in the first place because of our consiousness. Therefore we must assume that if Humanity never existed in the first place, neither would the universe because without perceiving it to begin with.
Nothing matters and therefore nothing exists.

I had a long discussion trying to explain this so someone who was not getting it. They were not arguing that it was wrong, just that they didn't understand fully.

One last time, If we never existed to begin with. Nothing matters, Never did matter, never did we ever explore the universe to find that it existed before us. There for since we never existed. Neither does anything else.

Go outside, look for a person who does not exist and ask them if the universe exists and you will get a good idea of what I mean.

Dodgy

That's just dressed-up solipsism.

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10-07-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: wtf are noetics?
(10-07-2014 08:24 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(10-07-2014 08:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The universe produced us. Therefore it has to exist without us. It existed long BEFORE brains evolved. Doesn't matter if "we" exist. There are no doubt other beings in the universe.

I suppose other beings could inherently break that chain as well and therefore give acknowledgment to existence and be able to discern history through science etc.

So if beings lacking enough intelligence to get what's going on, (dolphins and bonobos) were the only beings to exist, the universe wouldn't exist ?
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