your best argument against a personal god?
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16-04-2013, 10:10 PM
your best argument against a personal god?
What's your best argument for showing that a personal god is unlikely? I wlll also share mine. Tell me what you think about them.

Do you care about a deist or pantheistic god? As long people don't claim to have knowledge what god wants, with whom, how often, in which position someone should have consensual sex with, what to eat, how to dress, and such things, I don't care.

If someone says "I believe in god, but religion is man made", I may reply "a first cause must not necessarily be a god" but I don't really care.

In a casual discussion I easily dismiss argument form complexity, fine tuning argument, argument of beauty and the like and say "that's all very nice and plausible, it doesn't prove your holy book is true".

When they move on and want to prove that their religion and holy book is true using prophecy and miracles, I'll say "even if prophecy and miracles you just described literally happened that way (I don't think there is evidence but we dont have to discuss that.) it doesn't prove supernatural intervention.

"If I was shoot in front of thousands of people and video cameras, my head pulverized and then suddenly grow back, would that prove that I was god and that you have to follow my moral teachings? No."

I think they just draw the wrong conclusions from these "events". Even if I attend a thought experiment and say, let's assume it's true, I think other explanations are much more likely and I am wondering that they never discuss these alternative possibilities. In my opinion, it's much more likely that Jesus was an extraterrestrial or that we live in a virtual world which may be an experiment. Along all those possibilities I find the one most likely that it's all man made without closing my mind from other possibilities. I am wondering why they always stick with their explanation.
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17-04-2013, 03:25 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
It's because their fantasy is connected to their childhood, other family members and really great personal feelings.
It's ingrained.

As far as a personal god goes, do you mean a god that only looks out for me ?
A god that only cares about my welfare and ignores everyone else ?

My best argument against this type of god would be torture.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-04-2013, 04:11 AM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2013 04:20 AM by Luminon.)
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
(16-04-2013 10:10 PM)hestarq Wrote:  What's your best argument for showing that a personal god is unlikely? I wlll also share mine. Tell me what you think about them.
Personality is a product of biologic brain. Personality happens when you take an animal population and wait a few million years. Some dogs, cats, parrots, dolphins and chimps have personalities too. Personality is a sign of primitiveness, not divinity. There were cases of people who had brain injury and their personality changed completely. It is an old notion of primitive people who could imagine gods in no other way than "kind of people" too, only more powerful.

The highest, most sublime things we can be aware of are highly impersonal. Things like unconditional love, forces of nature, or clarity of intellect. We tend to personalize these, "wrath of elements" during storm, or "loving embrace" of the sun, where one is a discharge of excessive electric charge and the latter is the force of gravity, heat and other EM radiation. These things are real and magnificent, more so than our emotional label coming from our animal history of cowering in fear on savannahs. It is energy that can never be created nor destroyed, only change forms. The energy we bind in our feelings and bodies is just as real and important as what we do with it, perhaps more. We live in maya, the illusion of reality. The illusion of personality and separate existence is an important lesson for development, perhaps it's the only way to develop consciousness, it doesn't have to be very real. We must of course cast away these illusions once we see through them. But we may give a lesser illusion to someone for whom it is a higher truth.

(16-04-2013 10:10 PM)hestarq Wrote:  Do you care about a deist or pantheistic god? As long people don't claim to have knowledge what god wants, with whom, how often, in which position someone should have consensual sex with, what to eat, how to dress, and such things, I don't care.
As a matter of fact, I do care. I've been called an agnostic pantheist, which means the god must be at least as great as the universe itself, or I want my money back.
I'd say we should recognize god immanent and god transcencent, god as the sum of energy and natural laws - and units of consciousness like us, or our definition of a god will be inadequate. I believe we can do very interesting things with a good definition of god. Among other things, we can search for god with useful results if we know what to search for and where to start. People who search for sky daddys are not serious about the job.

Sex, dress and eating are natural things hijacked by culture. Personality is the cultural domain. I can't believe god is personal, so every god that cares about such things must be fake. Cultural trappings for a cultural god.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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17-04-2013, 07:53 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
You telling me my Gwynnies ain't my personal god, Lumi? Why, I oughta... Angry

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17-04-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
Quote:"If I was shoot in front of thousands of people and video cameras, my head pulverized and then suddenly grow back, would that prove that I was god and that you have to follow my moral teachings? No."

Here's your fallacy (and by the way, a fatal head wound that's healed is a key sign of Antichrist in Revelation, just saying!):

1. All things I've (you've) experienced had plausible, logical, natural explanations (true/granted). God never intervened in your life. Fine. "True".

2. All things anyone has experienced or will ever experience have natural explanations (special knowledge to the point of omniscience).

And what prophecies prove if they're true is predictive value so high and unlikely on the statistical scale that the Bible is the product of a sophisticated being(s) who at least are able to move through time. Smile
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17-04-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
(17-04-2013 10:35 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:"If I was shoot in front of thousands of people and video cameras, my head pulverized and then suddenly grow back, would that prove that I was god and that you have to follow my moral teachings? No."

Here's your fallacy (and by the way, a fatal head wound that's healed is a key sign of Antichrist in Revelation, just saying!):

1. All things I've (you've) experienced had plausible, logical, natural explanations (true/granted). God never intervened in your life. Fine. "True".

2. All things anyone has experienced or will ever experience have natural explanations (special knowledge to the point of omniscience).

And what prophecies prove if they're true is predictive value so high and unlikely on the statistical scale that the Bible is the product of a sophisticated being(s) who at least are able to move through time. Smile

Dude. We've been over this. Dodgy

That's the shit for the head count, that "fulfilled prophecy" is wondrous sign. By that argument, the Bible is made of fail.

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17-04-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
Here's mine...

A personal god implies an interventionist god (answers prayers and the like).

If there was such a thing as an interventionist god (or gods), the results of no scientific experiment would be valid.



Journalist: "Wow! That was an unexpected / predicted result. Congratulations."

Scientist: "Thanks, warm up a seat for me in Stockholm."

Journalist: "Hang on, how do you know that the gods didn't influence the result?"

Scientist: "Fuck it!"

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18-04-2013, 06:23 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
The idea that a god is going to help me in my day to day life (please pray that I have an outstanding performance today at work), while the poor people in third world countries who have absolutely zero chance at any improvement in life are ignored. And the religious apologist condemns those poor people by saying that they have rejected god.

REALLY!?

It starts with the tearing of one fabric. When one thing doesn't make sense and you allow yourself to think, it becomes easier to tear more pieces of fabric until you are in a state of complete confusion (and for some, denial) or are ready to renounce their faith altogether.

The god depicted in the Christian bible is not a being to admire. Sure, go head... be omnipotent and create an entire race of humans that are imperfect and unworthy. What fun is it to have omnipotence when you supposedly know the outcome of every single event happening today, tomorrow, 100 years from now or 100 billion years from now.

The god that is worshiped by Christians is kind of like an 8 year old playing a two-player video game, where he controls both the controllers.
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18-04-2013, 07:05 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
no evidence. Checkmate personal god
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18-04-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: your best argument against a personal god?
Aint no disproving my personal god... who happens to be me.

I get to judge my own actions, think what I want to think and do what I want to do. I am my own church and need nobody other than me.

I worship myself. I feel this is the most successful and most rewarding thing to do.

Hail Bemore!!!!

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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